Jul 22nd: Once Again, bulldozer attack in Jer'm center, 18 injured

[bararallu]

They can't evict or transfer a million people. What is needed is real solutions, not nonsense.

You don't have to transfer whole populations. If a person is caught and there was some conspiracy, either to hide or to protect by his family and village... everyone is exported to Gaza. Stripped of citizenship and their property destroyed. Plus the death penalty (with unmarked graves) is what is in order for punishing acts of terrorism.

[Mediocrates]

This was done in 2000-2001, remember? Israel 'deported' some families of terrorists from the West Bank to Gaza? The outcry was pretty loud.

[bararallu]

This was done in 2000-2001, remember? Israel 'deported' some families of terrorists from the West Bank to Gaza? The outcry was pretty loud.

There is outcry about everything. The Israeli Arabs need to understand that everyone is equal under the law and there are serious consequence for collusion and enabling terrorism. I would like to see similar laws enacted across the board. Say, if a so called "Jew" from the FSU is found to be a practicing Neo-nazi: umm buh bye back to the Step for them. If an Israeli Jew is found conspiring with extra-national entities (i.e., EU) to weaken the state and it's institutions, ditto.

[redcake]

Really?

I often hear these screams about Arabs being "traitors" for supporting Arab causes. How exactly is supporting their causes makes them traitors? Whom do they betray?

Really. (Though I meant to type "Arab Israeli" not Arab Israel, as if such a thing will or should ever exist. Arabs loyal to Israel do exist, even if it's hard for some to wrap their heads around. They don't want to live under Arab rule any more then you would. A number of these terror attacks actually target Arab population centers within Israel. Taking an us vs. them approach is a losing battle. A friend is a friend no matter even if they're an Arab.

Arab Israelis who betray Israel are in fact betraying their country. We're talking about Israelis who pay taxes, vote in elections, and for the most part mind their own business and function as upstanding citizens inside a Jewish state.

Rather then expel every Arab because he's an Arab, Israel should do what it does for Jews... ban certain political parties. Then they should do what every government foes with foreign workers, and require short stay work visas, and they should be sponsored by an employer.

[Yala]

You don't have to transfer whole populations. If a person is caught and there was some conspiracy, either to hide or to protect by his family and village... everyone is exported to Gaza. Stripped of citizenship and their property destroyed. Plus the death penalty (with unmarked graves) is what is in order for punishing acts of terrorism.

I agree with what you wrote, but some on this thread are talking about expelling over a million people. Personally, I have always agreed with Lieberman's attempts to find a solution. Even if some of his plans are problematic, at least he is trying to open up a dialogue about a serious issue facing Israel, and not sweeping it under the rug. Unfortunately, these terror attacks from within Israel are probably just the beginning.

[Steven]

I agree with what you wrote, but some on this thread are talking about expelling over a million people. Personally, I have always agreed with Lieberman's attempts to find a solution. Even if some of his plans are problematic, at least he is trying to open up a dialogue about a serious issue facing Israel, and not sweeping it under the rug. Unfortunately, these terror attacks from within Israel are probably just the beginning.

There is no real solution, there will never be true peace because of Islam. There can only be containment. These people should not be allowed in non-Muslim countries. They have no respect for anyone and the whole world does not have to live under the threat of continuous attacks. End Muslim immigration, deport when possible and end all their aid. They deserve no help.

Lets not forget this.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1204546422275

[bararallu]

There is no real solution, there will never be true peace because of Islam. There can only be containment. These people should not be allowed in non-Muslim countries. They have no respect for anyone and the whole world does not have to live under the threat of continuous attacks. End Muslim immigration, deport when possible and end all their aid. They deserve no help.

It depends. Not every Muslim is a serial killer of Jews. That's just reality. I know it's hard to fit that in a black and white world view but it's fact. The middle east is often more about ethnicity than it is about religion, albeit the latter does color things. There are Sunnis in Lebanon, for example, who would never want to be associated with Saudis, much less Pakistanis. Then again there are those that do. Same with Shia. FYI, most of the SLA that where staunch supporters of Israel, where not Maronites (although there were many of those too), but rather Shia, secular Arabs that where born Shia. They hated Amal and they hated Hizboallah and they wanted protection from both. In Israel the Bedouin, like the Druse etc, suffered badly under the Egyptian and Syrian Muslim Arabs, even though they were Arabs and Muslim themselves. You'll find not a few in the IDF, happy to serve. I'm pretty happy having them there too actually.

Israel is a complicated soup, and we do have a democracy, and all people can practice any religion pretty much and live their lives in peace and prosperity. If they target us, and betray the state they are citizens in, then they need to go. It doesn't have to be en mass. We dont need a sledgehammer where a scalpel is appropriate.

[bararallu]

I agree with what you wrote, but some on this thread are talking about expelling over a million people. Personally, I have always agreed with Lieberman's attempts to find a solution. Even if some of his plans are problematic, at least he is trying to open up a dialogue about a serious issue facing Israel, and not sweeping it under the rug. Unfortunately, these terror attacks from within Israel are probably just the beginning.

Well, it's obvious now that the "population bomb" has been grossly overestimated. There are signs that affluence has stymied the rapid growth in the Arab sector, which is predominately Muslim. There are a few creative ways that pressure can be applied and the situation, if not remedied, then certainly better tracked and dealt with.

• I think it would be appropriate to sue Syria (now that Egypt is a "Peace partner" I guess it would be inappropriate to sue them), to repatriate or at least pay for supporting their former citizens. Generally give them bad press, while putting serious pressure on those Israeli Arabs who publically state, as well as privately think, they are Syrians.
  
• Actively deconstruct the whole Israeli Arab = Palestinian. Self definition is important.
  
• Enact public service as mandatory. Not necessarily the military but social duty to the state.
  
• Have people swear loyalty during that social duty and inform them that breach to that duty means immediate expulsion or worse.
  
• Ban any and all Palestinian, Egyptian, Syrian and Saudi learning materials for schools. Moreso, Have the Jordanians liaisons monitor all religious affairs, and I mean every Mosque, in East Jerusalem.
  
• Have a referendum for Arabs on citizenship.

There are many things that can be done proactively to stack the deck in our favor.

[Steven]

It depends. Not every Muslim is a serial killer of Jews. That's just reality. I know it's hard to fit that in a black and white world view but it's fact. The middle east is often more about ethnicity than it is about religion, albeit the latter does color things. There are Sunnis in Lebanon, for example, who would never want to be associated with Saudis, much less Pakistanis. Then again there are those that do. Same with Shia. FYI, most of the SLA that where staunch supporters of Israel, where not Maronites (although there were many of those too), but rather Shia, secular Arabs that where born Shia. They hated Amal and they hated Hizboallah and they wanted protection from both. In Israel the Bedouin, like the Druse etc, suffered badly under the Egyptian and Syrian Muslim Arabs, even though they were Arabs and Muslim themselves. You'll find not a few in the IDF, happy to serve. I'm pretty happy having them there too actually.

Israel is a complicated soup, and we do have a democracy, and all people can practice any religion pretty much and live their lives in peace and prosperity. If they target us, and betray the state they are citizens in, then they need to go. It doesn't have to be en mass. We dont need a sledgehammer where a scalpel is appropriate.

ummmm................Islam is very black and white. If you are comparing it to other religions out there, you are clueless. To allow them freedom of religion is to allow them to dominate non-Muslims. You can call it what ever you want, nationalism, religion. Non-Muslims suffer under large populations of Muslims, even in Europe.

Sunnis and Shittes have one thing in common. They hate us, so what you said about them means nothing. Your way of sorting out the "good' ones from the bad has not worked and will not. Also, they do not have to kill anyone to be a threat or change Israel for the worse, Look at the site in Israel, where Jews cannot even pray in their own country. But I guess that is ok, because they did not kill anyone.

Weakness is exactly why the problem is getting worse and worse. When the biological, chemical and nuclear attacks start................will you need a sledgehammer then? It is only a matter of time.

[Steven]

Well, it's obvious now that the "population bomb" has been grossly overestimated. There are signs that affluence has stymied the rapid growth in the Arab sector, which is predominately Muslim. There are a few creative ways that pressure can be applied and the situation, if not remedied, then certainly better tracked and dealt with.

• I think it would be appropriate to sue Syria (now that Egypt is a "Peace partner" I guess it would be inappropriate to sue them), to repatriate or at least pay for supporting their former citizens. Generally give them bad press, while putting serious pressure on those Israeli Arabs who publically state, as well as privately think, they are Syrians.
  
• Actively deconstruct the whole Israeli Arab = Palestinian. Self definition is important.
  
• Enact public service as mandatory. Not necessarily the military but social duty to the state.
  
• Have people swear loyalty during that social duty and inform them that breach to that duty means immediate expulsion or worse.
  
• Ban any and all Palestinian, Egyptian, Syrian and Saudi learning materials for schools. Moreso, Have the Jordanians liaisons monitor all religious affairs, and I mean every Mosque, in East Jerusalem.
  
• Have a referendum for Arabs on citizenship.

There are many things that can be done proactively to stack the deck in our favor.

Public service is not going to change anything. Israel gives them jobs and they use it against Israel.
Them swearing is useless. After they blow themselves up, will you expel the body parts?
Israel would be stupid to trust any Muslims. Do you think Jordan has a different Koran? Jordan where a judge recently told some people who wanted to convert to Christianity, "no one leaves Islam". Jordan, where members of of the Islamic terrorist group the Muslim Brotherhood have seats in govt.
I'll stop there.
You said "if not remedied", you must be kidding. This is forever.
1400 years of the same behaviour and people still want to trust Muslims.

[redcake]

Yeah but Steven you're reacting to current event news rather then the reality on the ground. Yes these incidents happen, and must be dealt with, but much of it is strategic o their parts meant to provoke conflict. Rather then play into a holy war fantasy these people have, we must address what life in Israel is actually like. It's not a segregated country, and never can be...and what differences that exist aren't so easily cut and dry as to be defined as Arab vs. Jew.

[bararallu]

ummmm................Islam is very black and white. If you are comparing it to other religions out there, you are clueless.

Maybe I am clueless. I also recognize that religion is not the only defining characteristic of human beings. Islamists like to believe that though. So from their perspective, I stay blissfully clueless, I don't believe in their claptrap. I think for the most part that Islam is fairly hilarious actually.

To allow them freedom of religion is to allow them to dominate non-Muslims. You can call it what ever you want, nationalism, religion. Non-Muslims suffer under large populations of Muslims, even in Europe.

Then they have poor planning, poorer laws and cowardly policemen.

Sunnis and Shittes have one thing in common. They hate us, so what you said about them means nothing.

If you say. It means nothing to you, to us- people who live among them, it means a great deal more.

Your way of sorting out the "good' ones from the bad has not worked and will not. Also, they do not have to kill anyone to be a threat or change Israel for the worse,

If people act civilized and follow the laws, and do not conspire to over throw us, then I have no issue with them.

Look at the site in Israel, where Jews cannot even pray in their own country. But I guess that is ok, because they did not kill anyone.

That was a failure of our government, not Moslems per se.

Weakness is exactly why the problem is getting worse and worse. When the biological, chemical and nuclear attacks start................will you need a sledgehammer then? It is only a matter of time.

That's right Steven. That's what we call "escalation". It's like a little dance, and it has steps that need to be followed, for the human psyche to accept it. Now lets assume you're right that we shouldn't wait, and throw all the Arabs out in one fell swoop. Are you personally, or is your country, going to take the brunt of the retaliatory onslaught? Are you personally, or your country going to take the massive retaliation? Probably not. It will be mine. My family and my friends, the civilwar not withstanding with our Leftists.

[Steven]

Maybe I am clueless. I also recognize that religion is not the only defining characteristic of human beings. Islamists like to believe that though. So from their perspective, I stay blissfully clueless, I don't believe in their claptrap. I think for the most part that Islam is fairly hilarious actually.

It does not matter what you believe, it matters what they believe.

Then they have poor planning, poorer laws and cowardly policemen.

Right, blame Europe. In case you did not notice Muslims take over everywhere there are large populations of them. Just like the Middle East.

If you say. It means nothing to you, to us- people who live among them, it means a great deal more.

How sweet, does not change their goal. Shittes in Iran want to nuke you and Sunnis in Saudi Arabia preach hatred towards Jews. I will stick with the facts over your feelings. Hey, maybe if we are just that much nicer to them................oh, that has not worked for 1400 years.

If people act civilized and follow the laws, and do not conspire to over throw us, then I have no issue with them.

Political Islam will change our countries more the suicide bombers. The plan of the Muslim Brotherhood is to take over with in the law. If they do is it ok, because they did not break the law?

That was a failure of our government, not Moslems per se.

Once again according to you nothing is the Muslims fault......well then who were the ones who said they do not want Jews praying there in the first place. Little by little, they change things and take over. Just like the rest of the Middle East. But hey, it all good as long as it is with in the law.

That's right Steven. That's what we call "escalation". It's like a little dance, and it has steps that need to be followed, for the human psyche to accept it. Now lets assume you're right that we shouldn't wait, and throw all the Arabs out in one fell swoop. Are you personally, or is your country, going to take the brunt of the retaliatory onslaught? Are you personally, or your country going to take the massive retaliation? Probably not. It will be mine. My family and my friends, the civilwar not withstanding with our Leftists.

Let me know how many more of your people have to die until the human psyche accepts it. Even it is one million, the left and Muslims will still complain.

[KettleWhistle]

Really. (Though I meant to type "Arab Israeli" not Arab Israel, as if such a thing will or should ever exist. Arabs loyal to Israel do exist, even if it's hard for some to wrap their heads around. They don't want to live under Arab rule any more then you would. A number of these terror attacks actually target Arab population centers within Israel. Taking an us vs. them approach is a losing battle. A friend is a friend no matter even if they're an Arab.

What you're proposing is to reject the reality and the basic principal behind Israel's existence on what a few Arabs who live here believe in.

You said originally: "Yeah but again, you can't just assume that an Arab Israel (sic) is a problem based on their Arabness."

Sure I can. We all can, and I would say we must. This is the Jewish State first and foremost. It is not an Arab state, and Arabs who live here are an oddity. They are not any sort of Arab Israelis--there is no such thing, and should never be such thing. They are Israeli Arabs, ok. That does not mean they are loyal. They may like it here, so what?

Arab Israelis who betray Israel are in fact betraying their country. We're talking about Israelis who pay taxes, vote in elections, and for the most part mind their own business and function as upstanding citizens inside a Jewish state.

Rather then expel every Arab because he's an Arab, Israel should do what it does for Jews... ban certain political parties. Then they should do what every government foes with foreign workers, and require short stay work visas, and they should be sponsored by an employer.

They are Arabs, and their loyalties are to the Arabs and Arab causes. People like Bishara haven't betrayed anyone. In fact, they ought to be admired for standing up to the principles upon which they were elected. Arabs and Israelis have completely divergent interests here. Should we disregard that over a few Arabs who don't care about their people's national ambitions? I think not.

[bararallu]

Let me know how many more of your people have to die until the human psyche accepts it. Even it is one million, the left and Muslims will still complain.

and do let us know when the US Congress will pass laws to accept all consequences for Israeli actions, including those that are not obvious, conventional, escalations.