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Thread: Islamic History in a Nutshell.

  1. #1
    andak01
    Guest

    Islamic History in a Nutshell.

    Muslim Version

    Mecca was a center of pilgrimage prior to Muhammad (SAW). Muhammad (SAW) was born in Mecca. He began having revelations of the Quran and its message of monotheism. He preached a message which, if it proved popular would decrease the amount of profit the Meccans could make from their city of pilgrimage. The Meccans who were polytheists saw this as a threat and offered him large sums of money and power to stop preaching his message. When he refused, they began to mercilessly persecute the Muslims. Only because of the sway of his uncle Abu Talib was he spared. When his uncle died and was no longer there to protect him, he fled to Medina. Some others had already fled to Abyssinia (Ethiopia).

    Those who fled to Abyssinia were tracked down, but the King of the Abyssinians refused to turn the Muslims over. The Meccans, after some minor skirmishes had major battles with the Muslims at Badr, Uhud and Medina.

    In Medina, Muhammad (SAW) had established a pact with the Medinans. The Medinans and a local tribe broke the pact and were severely punished (as detailed by Ibn Ishaq by a description supplied by descendents of the Banu Quraizah). They had joined forced with the Meccans and invited other tribes to destroy the Muslims.

    Following the siege of Medina, the Meccans signed a truce with Muhammad. The Meccans broke the truce but were given the opportunity to make good on the breach. They refused and soon after, Mecca was taken by the Muslims. An amnesty was declared for the Meccans.

    Key points: Muslims were unfairly persecuted and overcame great odds to come to power. The Jews never meant more or less to Muslims except in as much as they posed an existential threat to them by allying with the Meccans and THEIR allies.

    Note on Muslim anti-semitism: The existential threat posed by the early contacts with Jews is extended to all Jews unfairly. This is similar to the way that Christians have persecuted Jews based on the role they are said to have played in the cruxifiction of Jesus (SAW).

    Modern Jewish Version

    Muhammad was born in Mecca and caused so much trouble there that they kicked him out. He robbed, raped and stole his way across the dessert until he reached Medina searching for Jews to kill. He killed this tribe and that tribe and the other until he had killed every Jew on the Arabian penninsula. He then told all his followers to keep killing Jews until there weren't any left. There was never such thing as the Constitution of Medina and the Treaty of Hudabiyyah is just an excuse to kill more Jews. Anything a Muslim says is a lie. Don't believe a word, except the ones that can be used to make them look bad.

    Key points: Jews were unfairly persecuted by the Muslims from the inception of Islam to today. That's who they are, that's what they do. Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill!


    Note: I refer to the above as the "modern" Jewish version because I don't believe it accords with past versions. What's more, I don't believe it is shared by all Jews.

  2. #2
    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
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    Andak,
    I really don't think you should have called it "Modern Jewish Version" since most of the people you are responding to aren't even Jewish. I think it should more properly be titled "Anti-Muslim Version."

    While I don't accept uncritically the official Muslim version of history (especially concerning events like the treatment of the Jewish tribes in Medina), neither do I give much credence to the "Modern Jewish Version" as you outlined, which is clearly exaggerated and would be supported by only the most extreme of your critics on this forum. They are not representative of most Israelis and Jews.

    The following remarks are not pointed at any specific individual, but at the forum in general. The level on venom and vitriol on this forum have been growing exponentially lately. The rules of the road claim that "common courtesy is required" and also that "Personal attacks are not allowed." I think the moderators need to do a better job of policing this forum. http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...26&postcount=1
    Last edited by dayag; 08-05-2008 at 04:13 PM.
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

  3. #3
    redcake
    Guest
    "Modern Jewish Version"? Wow.

  4. #4
    pagan
    Guest
    Ali Sina's version is the most correct version.

  5. #5
    andak01
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by pagan View Post
    Ali Sina's version is the most correct version.
    Yeah, he adds a couple of extra "kills" at the end! And calls our mod a communist for criticizing him. I thought that went out with the McCarthy era.

  6. #6
    andak01
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by redcake View Post
    "I'm don't love Jews because they are Jews, but I'm a LONG way from hating them for it. "

    Care to clarify?
    I wouldn't count myself among the Christian right-wing who says I'm Judeo-Christian, we share all the same values with the Jews, therefore, I am a Zionist! Whee!

    That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It shows utter ignorance of what Zionism is and what Judaism is. I can think of valid reasons to support Israel that have nothing to do with either. Why should someone of another religion support Israel because of a political concept based in Judaism? If Israel is something to support, it must pass the same tests that any other country does. And I believe Israel does that. They have defended against all attackers for 60 years and have shown that they can be successful as a nation. Therefore, though I am critical of some of Israel's policies, I would also criticize anyone whose goal is to destroy Israel. So I do not support Israel's enemies and I grant that Israel has a right to defend herself even in ways I may be critical of.

    That's a rational support of Israel that doesn't rely on religious and political beliefs I simply don't have.

  7. #7
    andak01
    Guest
    My reason for posting this thread, and excuse me if you don't agree with my title is that there are two versions of events and most people recognize that whether they believe in either of them or not. Our understanding of who Muhammad (SAW) is and what Islam is is based upon the Muslim version I outlined. That is a pretty common understanding among Muslims, whether we are Sunni or Shiite, moderate or jihadi.

    The version below, whether you agree that it is the truth or not, is not shared by Muslims. Therefore, it's incorrect to base OUR Muslim opinions of Muhammad (SAW) and Islam upon a version of history that Muslims don't share. If YOU want to hold that opinion or think it's historic, that's different from judging who Muslims are based on opinions we don't hold.

  8. #8
    Steven
    Guest
    Who cares? Did anyone change their mind?

    There is a pretty good understanding with Muslims, that it is ok to follow Mohammad's murdering and raping behaviour.
    Last edited by Steven; 08-11-2008 at 04:38 PM.

  9. #9
    andak01
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Who cares? Did anyone change their mind?
    If that's all you have to add, you could probably request the admins here to get a bot to fill in for you and repeat the same words after every one of my posts.

  10. #10
    Steven
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    If that's all you have to add, you could probably request the admins here to get a bot to fill in for you and repeat the same words after every one of my posts.
    I understand you do not want to face the truth. Maybe when you hit 20,000 posts someone will actually believe you.

  11. #11
    Steven
    Guest
    FAITH UNDER FIRE
    Saudis to Christians: Get out!
    Those accused of worshipping in homes ordered deported

    Posted: August 04, 2008
    10:13 pm Eastern

    © 2008 WorldNetDaily


    King Abdullah

    More than a dozen Christians in Saudi Arabia who were accused by government officials of worshipping in their homes have been ordered deported.

    According to a report from International Christian Concern, the Christians will be expelled tomorrow for their part in a home worship service in Taif in April.

    The deportation conflicts with the message stated just weeks earlier by Saudi King Abdullah, who called for interfaith dialogue and held a summit in Spain with a representatives from several major religions.

    "Deporting Christians for worshipping in their private homes shows that King Abdullah's speech is mere rhetoric and his country is deceiving the international community about their desire for change and reconciliation," said Jeff King, the president of ICC.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=71498

  12. #12
    redcake
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    I wouldn't count myself among the Christian right-wing who says I'm Judeo-Christian, we share all the same values with the Jews, therefore, I am a Zionist! Whee!

    That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It shows utter ignorance of what Zionism is and what Judaism is. I can think of valid reasons to support Israel that have nothing to do with either. Why should someone of another religion support Israel because of a political concept based in Judaism? If Israel is something to support, it must pass the same tests that any other country does. And I believe Israel does that. They have defended against all attackers for 60 years and have shown that they can be successful as a nation. Therefore, though I am critical of some of Israel's policies, I would also criticize anyone whose goal is to destroy Israel. So I do not support Israel's enemies and I grant that Israel has a right to defend herself even in ways I may be critical of.

    That's a rational support of Israel that doesn't rely on religious and political beliefs I simply don't have.
    You were talking about Jews, not Israel. Basically you're saying it's your disdain for Christian Zionism, and a Judeo-Christian concept that entitles you to use statements about how you "don't love Jews because they are Jews but you're a long way from hating" them as a twisted defense of your supposed moderate-ness.

  13. #13
    andak01
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by redcake View Post
    You were talking about Jews, not Israel. Basically you're saying it's your disdain for Christian Zionism, and a Judeo-Christian concept that entitles you to use statements about how you "don't love Jews because they are Jews but you're a long way from hating" them as a twisted defense of your supposed moderate-ness.
    I'm not the only one who thinks the term Judeo-Christian in its present usage is a warped piece of propaganda.

    The comments of Jewish author Mr. S. Levin may well explain the Christian's need for the Judeo-Christian myth. Writing in the Israeli journal Biblical Polemics, Levin concludes: "'After all, we worship the same God', the Christian always says to the Jew and the Jew never to the Christian. The Jew knows that he does not worship the Christ-God but the Christian orphan needs to worship the God of Israel and so, his standard gambit rolls easily and thoughtlessly from his lips. It is a strictly unilateral affirmation, limited to making a claim on the God of Israel but never invoked with reference to other gods. A Christian never confronts a Moslem or a Hindu with 'After all, we worship the same God'."


    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/judeochr.htm


    http://www.amazon.com/Judeo-Christia...043235&sr=8-24

    The term Judeo-Christian did not exist at the founding of this country, yet it is common to ascribe the founding fathers as having Judeo-Christian principles. The orignal meaning of the word, that there is a common scripture and some common prophets, a valid comment, has been lost to Christian-Zionism and anti-Muslim exclusionary rhetoric.

  14. #14
    Steven
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post

    The term Judeo-Christian did not exist at the founding of this country, yet it is common to ascribe the founding fathers as having Judeo-Christian principles.
    So what, that is what the country was founded on. Not barbaric Islamic "principles".

  15. #15
    pagan
    Guest
    Andak what do you do for a living ?
    You are here 24/7/365
    Does Soudies pay you for writing ? See this is a serious question..I don't see any other reason why you are here defending evil Islam.

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