Russia's war on Georgia

[Steven]

Funny to hear Leftists calling for bombing civilians and forcing a regime change. Of course, when it comes to Iran, they sing a completely different tune.

Anyway, takeo, this must remind you of the golden era of Communism, when Imperialist Russia brought the entire planet Earth to the brink of nuclear destruction and World War III. Good times...

Well I will give them one thing, when they fight they do not mess around.

[Steven]

Funny to hear Leftists calling for bombing civilians and forcing a regime change. Of course, when it comes to Iran, they sing a completely different tune.

Anyway, takeo, this must remind you of the golden era of Communism, when Imperialist Russia brought the entire planet Earth to the brink of nuclear destruction and World War III. Good times...

While we are tied down creating an Islamic country in Iraq.

[Mediocrates]

Well it will be darned embarrassing for Russia if they don't get this cleaned up soon. After all the 2014 Winter Olympics were awarded to Sochi, literally a few miles north of the Russian artillery in Abkhazia firing on civilians in interior Georgia. What with the flames, noise, atrocities, I mean, righteous liberation of freedom loving peoples, I doubt it will make the venue very popular.

[redcake]

Georgia are pulling half their 2000 soldiers which are guarding the Iraq/Iran border for us. Grrrrrreat.

[takeo]

Russia is an old time imperialist, which under both the Tsarists and the Commies has ethnically cleansed other nationalities from their historical homes. The Ossets invaded Georgia, and then Russified, continue to harass a state that has always been good to the Jews, and is a beacon of western progress in the region.

Russia is not more imperialist than the US, which ethnically cleansed millions of indigenous people and conquered parts of Mexico. Also in South-Ossetia Russia was defending its citizens, whereas there were no American citizens in Iraq.
Georgia is not a beacon of progress in the region, just before the elections Saakashvili arrested the main opposition leaders and declared the state of emergency, do you call that a beacon of western progress? Also economically Georgia a disaster. When I was there a few years ago the electricity supply was interrupted every hour or so, even in the capital Tbilissi. Georgia is also very corrupted.

[takeo]

Russia's firm response made clear that Saakashvili's dictatorial reign has come to an end. I hope they will not just push Georgia from South-Ossetia but also conduct a regime-change in Tbilissi. It's about time.

How is Georgia a dictatorship exactly? Just wandering.


The US nor the EU will do anything else than "expressing their deep concern". Anyway, even if they sign a cease-fire, Saakashvili is history. He is already deeply unpopular because of the economic situation and his dictatorial behavior, and this current madness will not be forgiven by his people. Also, now the chance that Georgia will ever become member of the EU and nATO is slimmer than ever. Noone want to risk war with Russia because of this unstable little country, and Russia just demonstrated that they will not tolerate anyone fooling around in their backyard.

Russia is playing nationalism. The idiots are out of control.

Just before last elections Saakashvili declared the state of emergency and cracked down on an opposition rally, opposition leaders have been arrested and were called "traitors". Also some opposition leaders as well as former allies of Saakashvili have died in mysterious circumstances. Of course the OSCE and the West did not officially condamn their proxy, however they didn't call the elections free and fair either.
Russia AND georgia are playing nationalism, also Israel and the US are playing nationalism, nothing wrong with that. Do you think the US or Israel wouldn't intervene in similar circumstances?

[takeo]

Such idiots. Russia wanted a war it got itself a war. They are already bombing Georgia outside of Ossetia - may be Georgia should return the favor. By the way they are already reporting 1,500 dead - Lebanese toll of one month.

Wait to go!!!!!! These idiots in the Kremlin don't know what the f***ck they are doing.

They know very well what they're doing. Most victims fell when Georgia took Shinkvali, according to Russian sources around 2000 civilians have been killed and Georgia tried to ethnically cleanse the region. They pushed Georgia back to the status-quo. But I think they will take advantage of the opportunity to show once and for all who's in charge in the region (Russia) and who's not (the West).
Georgia returning the favor? A lot of their army infrastructure has already been destroyed.

[takeo]

If they get their desired result, then they were not idiots. I'd bet the Russian public by and large will be delighted.

The Russian public is not American public. There is no Barak Obama of Russia. It's a place were a president names his successor and then becomes the new boy's prime minister. If our nationalist friend Takeo, whom we did not see for a while, is looking for democracy loving public..... Russia is definetly a place. I work with a lot of Russians as part of my work and many of them want to get the f***ck out of that place.

I don't have a lot of time currently. But I'll be back. I hope everything is OK, it's nice to debate with you, altough we never agree on anything.

I returned from Russia just last week, after a trip to Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. Most Russians love Putin because the economic circumstances improved a lot under his rule, Yeltsin was an absolute disaster. I agree that Russia is not a real democracy, but still Putin's rule is popular. Most Russians believe the US is behind tensions with Georgia, and the US is very unpopular as in much of the rest of the world. Most Russians also support his efforts to restore some of the international standing and contacts of the Soviet-Union. And he's succesful, in Tajikistan when I was registering with OVIR a giant portrait of Putin covered the hall. In Dushanbe half of the youngsters (many of whom in mini-skirt, another legacy of the Soviets in this country which neighbours Afghanistan, where alcoholism is much more an issue than Islamism) were t-shirts with "Russia" or "CCCP".

[takeo]

Russia is using ballistic missiles against Georgia's civilians outside of the South Ossetian conflict.

Will Putin see the inside of The Hague?

No, of course, neither will G. W. Bush for his crimes in Iraq. Leaders of big countries with veto-power will never face justice. However Russia is pushing for an international investigation of the events that happened in Shinkvali during the brief Georgian occupation.

[takeo]

Funny to hear Leftists calling for bombing civilians and forcing a regime change. Of course, when it comes to Iran, they sing a completely different tune.

Anyway, takeo, this must remind you of the golden era of Communism, when Imperialist Russia brought the entire planet Earth to the brink of nuclear destruction and World War III. Good times...

Actually Georgia started to violate the cease-fire conditions and slaughter Russian citizens. Iran is not slaughtering US-citizens as far as I know and not violating any cease-fire conditions, nor was Iraq.
The conflict is more similar to the war between Israel and Lebanon, Hesbollah started to attack Israel, and Israel in reaction destroyed whole quarters of Beirout and whole villages. During that war I didn't hear you condemning Israel for bombing civilians.

Russia is just defending its own interests and its own citizens in a neighbouring country. It did never bomb or invade faraway countries rich in mineral resources as the US did.
About the cold war, the planet was almost to the brink of nuclear destruction because the Soviets installed missiles in Cuba. Today the US installed missiles in Poland and Czech republic. Who's pushing for confrontation, the US or Russia?

[takeo]

While we are tied down creating an Islamic country in Iraq.

I will not remind newsguy and others to their support for this war, too painfull.

[takeo]

Well it will be darned embarrassing for Russia if they don't get this cleaned up soon. After all the 2014 Winter Olympics were awarded to Sochi, literally a few miles north of the Russian artillery in Abkhazia firing on civilians in interior Georgia. What with the flames, noise, atrocities, I mean, righteous liberation of freedom loving peoples, I doubt it will make the venue very popular.

I think in 2014 Abkhazia and South-Ossetia will be parts of Russia. That's what the overwelming majority of the inhabitants want. And the West unilaterally recognised the independance of Kosovo, nothing will stop Russia now from unilaterally recognising South-Ossetia and Abkhazia, as a first step towards annexation. Putin said that after the "genocide" peaceful reintegration in Georgia is no longer an option.

[farmall]

Large countries are wise to take buffer states, and considering the MANY times Russia has been invaded it makes more sense to rely on territory as opposed to the kindness of other nations whose leadership can change overnight.

Solidification of the new "Iron Curtain" is an exploitable opportunity. Russia imposes a boundary on the Eastern expansion of NATO, but those already members can see the results. Those not members can be reabsorbed by Russia and forgotten.

The peoples of the East were always doomed to Tsarist/Soviet/Putinist mastery. That's how that bit of the world works, and we should be delighted to have gotten as far as we have in rescuing the pieces of Europe that matter and regaining OUR buffer states!

Now the goal should be stability so all concerned can get on with other affairs like bolstering their economies and dealing with the Muslim problem we share.

[KettleWhistle]

Large countries are wise to take buffer states, and considering the MANY times Russia has been invaded it makes more sense to rely on territory as opposed to the kindness of other nations whose leadership can change overnight.

Russia has been invaded twice in the past 200 years or so. Meanwhile it invaded and expanded by conquest. As it done so, it used aggressive, often inhumane, means to Russify conquered lands by population exchanges, minor genocides, ethnic cleansing and replacement, and directed elimination of local cultures which is going on full speed up to this day.

Tako's comparisons of Russian nationalism and chauvinism with American culture is simply absurd. Russia is built on conquests, inequality, and hatred of all things different. This recent Russian assault on Georgian territory, and the excuses for it, are really reminiscent of the German invasion of Chechoslovakia in WWII. The Russian MO is to claim that a certain territory has a large number of ethnic Russians (not Russian citizens), which usually isn't even true, then they give anyone from that territory Russian citizenship/passport, and claim that they need to be in there to protect their citizens.

[farmall]

"Russia has been invaded twice in the past 200 years or so."

Let's not forget WW1, where Russia was beaten and signed the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

"Meanwhile it invaded and expanded by conquest. As it done so, it used aggressive, often inhumane, means to Russify conquered lands by population exchanges, minor genocides, ethnic cleansing and replacement, and directed elimination of local cultures which is going on full speed up to this day."

Conquest is perfectly normal and works well. Ditto removal of opposing cultures. Groups who renounce this will be consumed by those that do not, just as weakness has no reward in nature. If one does not want to be a victim, then it is wise to be warlike and too dangerous to mess with.

The "rightness" or "wrongness" of Russian actions is academic. Their relationship to us is what is of concern in terms of developing useful policy, which must be shaped by cold calculation. The emotional stuff is useful for managing the mob.