Russia's war on Georgia

[takeo]

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I don't really know and that's why I didn't quote him in the first place. But once Takeo chose to drop his name with regards to what happened in 1948, I felt obliged to remind him what Benny says about 2000/2001. Yet in true Takeo fashion he puts his hand on his heart and he tells me with a straight face that Benny Morris employed meticulous research to reach his conclusions about 1948 but not in his conclusions about 2000/2001.

So I asked Takeo, what's the difference? Either he is a respected historian whose work is thoroughly researched both in 1948 and 2000/2001 or he is not and we shouldn't believe what he says, period.

So I ask you or anyone else: Who is consistent about Benny Morris, me or Takeo?

For the last time, there is a difference between the historian and the political person. There are different historians, even those with nazi-sympathies, who wrote excellent studies about certain subjects, it doesn't mean I have to agree with their political opinions.

What I like about Morris is his elaborate research of the events in the '40's, which no other Israeli historian has researched in such an laborate way. I read parts of his book "The birth of the Palestinian refugee problem", but I plan to read it entirely, as well as other works.
He never extensively studied the Camp David negociations, as far as I know he didn't publish any book on that subject, so he's not an autority on that field. All he did was expressing his personal opinion (and he has the right to have one), not based on his own research.

[takeo]

Go screw yourself. You stand for the 2 most oppressing ideologies on the planet. Very telling who you are.

You stand for US-imperialism, very telling for who you are.

[takeo]

Mil

You did not prove anything. You just stated that there "there is" descrimination.

I provided facts, see above. Unlike you, who just claims "Jews are discriminated in Russia" which I find hard to believe. (of course there is some daily discrimination, but no official discrimination, and according to me not on the scale Israeli Arabs have to face)

[takeo]

Posted by Takeo:

Care to provide any links, evidence of discrimination against Jews in today's Russia? So how does Russia discriminate against Abramovich?

Abramovich does not even live in Russia And why Abramovich? I wouldn't recommend a hassidic Jew to walk through Moscow...

Abramovich is a Russian Jew, and according to you Russian Jews are persecuted.

Hassidic Jews stand out even in Tel Aviv. Because they look very different they may face some reactions, especially in Russia which is a bit xenofobic.
There are many more muslims than Jews in Moscow, yet I didn't see a single veiled woman. She would be in serious trouble. Russians are not necessarily racist but they don't like people to behave differently. Even if you sit on the floor in the metro or don't stand to the right you'll get nasty comments. They are less tolerant than French or American people, but not necessarily racist. For example many Georgians, Tatars and Jews belong to the cultural and economical elite of Russia. Those who behalve like Russians and are russified have no problem at all.

If I walked around with a Lenin or Stalin t-shirt I might not have any problem in Russia but certainly in the US. Or wth an Osama Bin Laden t-shit. (which they sell in the moscow basars). But when I was in Moscow I saw a few people with a "keppel", no probem at all. I can assure you however that any bearded ostentative muslim or woman in a Burka might face serious in Israel and be the subject of discrimination or worse.

But this are exceptional cases. I lived a few years in Antwerp in Belgium, they have a large chassidic quarter next to a muslim quarter. It was funny to see how chassidic people went to stripclubs on their bicycles and negociating in moroccon shops next to bearded muslims and veiled woman. Also in Eastern Jerusalem you see chassidic Jews negociating in Arabic on Palestinian bazars. It is true that Russia is more xenofobic.

[takeo]

Mil

Why?

Because they lack organisation, discipline, propper training, etc.

Israel pre-emptied them.

it's not sure they would have attacked at all.

Of course... you play nationalism you will be popular. Russia is a liberal autocracy (my term .

maybe, but he's also popular because he raised living standards and cut the chaos.

By 700,000 every year? And Russians are not making a lot of children because the economy SUCKS!!!! Plus lots of people are not living long.

I think people don't live long because of pervasive alcoholism, which seems to be inherent to Russian culture. The economy is improving fast, according to me there is no relationship with the economy and birth rate. Tajikistan has a high birth rate, yet the economy is not necessarily better than the Russian economy, at all.

They would have under any Russian government. Putin just doesn't like competition.

Under Yeltsin the economy decreased every year, in 1999 Russian GNP was about 40% of in 1989, and most Russians lived in poverty. Now only about 20% of the Russians live in poverty, and the GNP is back on the level of 1989, or better. Average monthly wages increased from 70$ in 1999 to 600$ this year. The only big problem that continued is pervasive corruption.

You mean your personal rights are not important to you. I guess that's normal for people who like authoritarian governments. That's fine with me.

Most people only care about their personal life and living standards. And most people, especially in the West, don't care too much about politics.

I agree that the Soviets intephered too much in the personal life of people, it's not the case anymore. I don't think this will come back anytime soon.

[takeo]

You miss the mark when you claim that everyone besides white Azkenazim are 'discriminated'. Are there classes in this imperfect society? Yes there are. Please stick to the real world please.

Many people in Israel complained to me, about discrimination (Arabs against Jews, Ashkenazi against sefardim, etc.) and about expensive life and poor wages.

[takeo]

Yes, full citizenship and voting rights afforded to the Arabs do contradict the idea of a liberal democratic Jewish state.

Your racist ideas of ethnic cleansing contradict the idea of a liberal democratic state.

[takeo]

Reffo

By that standard Chechnya is Chechen land, not Russian, because most people in Chechnya speak Chechen. [color=red]So, tell me Takeo: What are the Russians doing in Chechnya?

Chechnya is a recognised part of Russia. Chechnyans have their own autonomous republic, Russians never abolished this republic nor did they abolish the Chechen language as official language in Chechnya. That's exactly what the Georgians did in Abkhazia and South-Ossetia in 1991. Do the Israeli Arabs have autonomy in Israel? (eventough they are the majority in Galilea and Negev, they have no such autonomy)

I keep on hearing this pathetic party line from all you commos. But could someone please explain to me what that actually means when Arafat and even now Abbas keep on insisting that Israel must recognize, unconditionally, the Palestinians so called Right of Return? How does that take Israel's demographic concerns into consideration?

he didn't say unconditionally.

Why? Because the Nazis converted their threats against the Jews into reality while Nasser couldn't?

Because Nasser's ideology was not about whiping out the Jews, it was about Arab nationalism and the liberation of Palestine. Nasser never attacked Israel, only Sadat did.

What do you mean abuse? Weren't you the one who said that we shouldn't care about the collaboration of the Mufti of Jerusalem (who was the spiritual leader of Palestinian Arabs in the 30s and 40s) with Hitler and their plans to exterminate the Jews of Palestine?

The mufti of Jerusalem played no role whatsoever during WWII, nor did Palestine. Of course Palestinians sided with anyone against their ennemies the zionists and their colonisers the Brits. Wouldn't you in their case?
Anyway on the contrary large Arabian troops in service of France played a crucial role during WWII. In Algeria most Arabs sided with general De Gaulle against Vichy, because De Gaulle promised to reform or end colonialism.

And you are calling me low? That's a tad hypocritical of you isn't it?

now, I don't like people abusing the Shoah for their own private reasons.

Your analogy is wrong Takeo. Why? Because both Jews and Arabs immigrated into Palestine between the late 1800s and 1948.

That's nonsense, the large majority of Arabs lived there long before the 1800's. There is statistical proof of that.

And Palestine at that time was neither Jewish, nor Arab. First it was owned by Turkey, then by England and when they both left, the land was up for grabs and should have been shared between the peoples who lived there.

It has an Arab majority since many centuries, and many of these Arabspeaking Palestinians have roots that preceed the Arab invasion. For example the christian Palestinians (around 40% in the 1800's, when large numbers converted or migrated) are the heirs of the people living before the Arab invasion, when most inhabitants were christians. Most converted to Islam during Arab and Turkish rule. Scotland has always been ruled by GB, it doesn't mean Scots don't exist right?

Indeed The UN voted to partition the land into two states, one Jewish one Arab. The Jews agreed to this but the Arabs started a war...

yes, but since the Israeli pull the strings yet there's still no Arab state, and many Israeli politicians don't want an Arab state in Palestine.

I can't believe you are still arguing about this with me. The arabs started a war that the Jews didn't want. Both people suffered horribly as a consequence but the Arabs and people like you want the Jews to bear the responsibility for a war of extermination that the Arabs started [The Arabs clearly stated that their goal was to exterminate the Jews of Palestine].

I don't say the Jews bear the responsability. I said the war was a logical consequence of the situation: two people on the same land. You think too much in terms like "responsability", "guilt", I think in terms of solutions. Yes the Arabs made a mistake to launch war against Israel in 1948, Israel made a mistake to take more than was accorded to them and subsequently cleanse most Palestinians from this territory. They also made a big mistake to keep and colonise the territories occupied in 1967. But now that's not really important, what's important is a solution, acceptable for both people, the division of the historical Palestine in two parts, the division of its capital in two parts, and a solution for the people who have been ethnically cleansed in 1948. The UN-resolutions should be the guideline in this, as both Israeli and palestinians are represented in the UN.

[takeo]

Reffo

Sarah El Shazly appears in "frontpage magazine" which is as extreme rightwing as can possibly be. You'll always find people who betray their own people. I wouldn't be surprised if there are Jews supporting Hamas. But she's not a respected historian like E. Said at all, she didn't publish any works or books, she has no credibility in western universities. I don't think it's comparable to Morris, which is respected in Western and even Israeli universities.

Really? Perhaps the Americans and the Brits didn't contemplate it but Stalin certainly did. Not only did he but I believe that hundreds of thousands of ethnic Germans actually were ethnically cleansed from southern Poland at the insistence of stalin.

No, the Poles did it independently. Stalin cleansed the Germans from Eastern Prussia and Kaliningrad. But I don't agree to every decision Stalin took, especially not this one. Do you?

By the way, even as it was, even following unconditional surrender by Germany and Japan, they ACTUALLY were occupied by allied forces for many years.

not really, the troops stayed for a long time, but both countries regained independence very quickly.

You are betraying your ignorance of history again Takeo. In fact Israel started off treating the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza very well. They built infrastructure and new housing for the refugees in the camps but that had to stop because Arafat and his henchmen forbade any cooperation by any Palestinian in such endeavours. And anyone who ignored that edict was labelled a collaborator and became a marked man, or worse.

Palestinians had no independence, were military occupied and their gardens and lands were destroyed to build Israeli settlements. Of course they didn't want to collaborate with the oppressor. Palestine is not extremely poor (but I didn't go to Gaza) but still a serious difference with Israel. There's also a serious difference between East- and West-Jersualem.

[takeo]

Reffo

So Stalin wasn't a real leftist?

He wasn't an israeli leftist.

My point was that contrary to your claims, he isn't and he never was anti Palestinian.

oh really? He described the Israeli Arabs as a "fifth column"...

I get it Takeo:

"everyone knows".... translation: leftists.....

no, mainstream.

So quite a few of your Arab friends must be "rightists" because they talk of ethnically cleansing the Jews of Israel.

it's not acceptable, wether right- or leftwing.

[takeo]

Reffo

Links and quotes please!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Yes, but only after an interim period of confidence building. That's only fair, after the Palestinians waging of nearly 100 years of war against the Jews.

What about 40 years of israeli occupation, should it mean that palestinians have the right to occupy parts of Israel temporary? A state which doesn't control its own borders, airspace and water sources is not a real state but will be a 100% certain failure. If Israel is serious about peace, it should give the Jordan valley to palestine. If not there won't be any peace.

This point was raised because you claimed that the Jews were allocated a disproportionate share of Palestine. In response, I mentioned the Balfour declaration of 1917 at which time Eastern Palestine (Transjordan) was an integral part of Palestine as a whole. So the Jews were promised a portion of that land commensurate to their numbers.

Sure, the Brits had the right to change their mind subsequently (in 1922) and offer 75% of palestine (all of Eastern Palestine) to the Arabs. But then please don't come and say to me that the Jews ended up with a bigger share of the land because they didn't.

Transjordan was never a real part of Palestine, as my sources point out. Since the Brittish explicitly ruled out any zionist settlements in Jordan, the only land that matters was the land between the Jordan river and the sea. They didn't change their mind, as they made clear that they didn't consider Transjordan to be part of Palestine or subject to the Balfour-declaration. There has never been any significant Jewish presence in Transjordan.
That's just a non-argument you use, to hide the fact that Israel now occupies a large share of the historical palestine, much larger than what was given them by the UN-partition plan, while in the beginning of the 20th century the palestinians consisted of the large majority of the population.
So all I'm trying to say is that the green line should be the real border between Israel and palestine (some minor exchange of territory is possible) and that that's a good deal for Israel. You can't have it all.

[Mil]

Posted by Reffo:

Fair enough, I have no argument with that but I assume that you also agree with Benny Morris when he blamed Arafat for the failure of the 2000/2001 peace talks because of insistence on the so called unlimited Right of Return? And because of the subsequent violence that the Palestinians unleashed after Barak was not willing to concede that demand?

Arafat wanted an Intifada and he got himself an Intifada.

Mil, I ask you, do you agree with Benny Morris about that too? Because if you do, then whether you are right or wrong about our Benny, at least I respect your opinion because at least, unlike Takeo, you'd be consistent.

I have my own opinion on that. As to Benny Morris I am only interested in the history he wrote on 1948/49.

[Mil]

I am bored.

[bararallu]

Why? agitprop fabrication is good for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The KGB spawn is just getting started.

[Steven]

I am bored.

Ask Takeo if he knows any Russian call girls.