Ashkenazi and Sefardim

[takeo]

This treat is not about Arabs versus Jews.
I went to israel and was surprised to find all jews were more or less having a strong sence of national pride (even too strong close to arrogance) and only excluding the Pals living in Israel.
But this is very strange because at thec same time i saw so much difference between the different groups of Jews living there.
the Russian Jews are more russian than jew (for sure the ones who immigrated recently) and most of them(if not all) immigrated to israel for economic reasons. The Ethiopian jews are a community apart as well, and still many sefardics cling together.
however it seems that the most dominant group are the ashkenazi Jews, and that Israel is mostly organised according to their principles. it makes it also more easy to understand why Israel is so much Americanised, as most ashkenazi Jews(or with Ashkenazi origin) today live in the States and israel. The European and American ashkenazi's (in France, Holland and Belgium also some sefardic jews) have mostly assimilated and few still speak Jiddisch. Most disappeared from their Eastern european settlements in WWII and they assimilated very much in Russia during the soviet period. Many came first to western Europe before moving to Israel. So ashkenazi jews have been westernised (except the Russians) and Israel is a western country. Still however one can see some typical Eastern European remains in Israeli mentality, lifestyle etc.(for axemple the kittutz remind me very much of eastern europe in some cases) that have spread from the ashkenazi dominant group to all Israeli. I don't know if most Ashkenazi did came directly from eastern Europe or lived already some time in the west before moving to Israel. It is clear to me that they wanted to be as western as possible and forget about their homeland. Also some western european and american Jews went to israel and made the country even more western.
however how was it possible to integrate other groups with totally different culture into this, like the groups coming from Arab countries and Iran, and for example Ethiopia, who did not have been westernised and don't have cousins in Western Europe or America? Did they contribute as well to the national mentality, etc. and have they been discriminised? Was the Hebrew choosen as common language instead of Jiddisch to facilitate their integration? are they today largely integrated or not yet?
and last question: what about the Russian jews, they are as well ashkenazi but have not been westernised but russianised instead(and some have more Russian blood in them than Jewish). Are they considered as equals in Israel or not?
It is strange however that a national ideology can bind people from all over the world and make a new society (only unfortunate that the non-jews living in that land that became Israel have been left out completely, but that's another discussion).

[takeo]

kibutz

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
...however how was it possible to integrate other groups with totally different culture into this, like the groups coming from Arab countries and Iran, and for example Ethiopia, who did not have been westernised and don't have cousins in Western Europe or America? Did they contribute as well to the national mentality, etc. and have they been discriminised? Was the Hebrew choosen as common language instead of Jiddisch to facilitate their integration? are they today largely integrated or not yet?
and last question: what about the Russian jews, they are as well ashkenazi but have not been westernised but russianised instead(and some have more Russian blood in them than Jewish). Are they considered as equals in Israel or not?

You raise a great many questions about multi-national integration, and I think that most of them can be answered like this:

Israel is a Western country largely due to its democratic system, its values on education and society, and of course the combined wealth of input from the diversified national origins of its citizens.

So far as the electoral system and emphasis on education and democracy, these represented a major break for Sephardic Jews from their Arab-country origin, where these values do not exist for the most part.

But the Sephardic Jews have brought a tremendous contribution in these areas as well, because as Jews they always valued the experience of studying Jewish literature, which they easily translated into academic excellence, more and more with each generation.

In our generation there is a very good integration between Sephardic jews and Ashkenazi Jews. There is a combined culture, which nhas become a distinct Israeli culture and has components of both cultures.

Russian Jews regardless of the reasons they returned to Israel, are also integrating quickly into Israeli society, although many of them have just arrived in the past few years and are still aclimating. But most Russian Jews have arrived with a wealth of academic and cultural assets, which they are contributing to israeli society. I believe that already Israeli society reflects the input of the Russian Jews and more and more so with each passing year.

The Ethiopian Jews are taking longer to integrate into Israeli culture because their point of reference is so different to begin with. But still, they have done very well in a matter of just a few years and there is a very strong trend of integration.

All these groups are well represented in the Israeli legislature and in all aspects of private and public life.

This might be a lesson to many readers, that the common religious bond among Jews of all cultures is much stronger than any differences in their national origin.

[takeo]

Yes, but why couldn't the Palestinians have been integrated in this process? (maibe as a distinctive group, not to be assimilated)
In any case the culture of the sephardic jews is similar to that of the palestinians and many of them still speak arab. I went to Morocco and saw that the jews remaining there have no problems whit racism. it is strange that the sephardic Jews have the strongest hate against Arabs, maibe they want to stress their own superiority and allegiance to israeli society by looking upon the Palestinians.
i think this integration and westernisation is because of large financial contributions as you stated, and because of the good education policy. It is true that the Russian Jews are in general very devellopped in science, culture, etc. and can contribute this. However many still have problems adapting to a more western society and are generally paid less than an established Israeli citizens. I think they are still, together with the Ethiopians the most isolated group of jews in israel, right? probably the next generation who had their youth in Israel will assimilate more easily.
I noticed as well that many Palestinians have integrated into israeli society and a lot of mixed marriages take place, in which mostly the jewish family resists more than the palestinian family.

[aid]

Takeo,

What you write is the best evidence you understand nothing.

The world is passing by you, and you can't see it, all because you are blinded by your Communist ideology of two hundred years ago.

Since you have no concept of Jewishness, I will explain it to you. Jews all over the world, no matter where they live, what language they speak, and what hue their skin is, feel part of the same nation. The Jewish nation is special, and I won't go into it, but it is a nation. Stalin and Marxists did not recognize Jews as a nation, and this is why you can't understnad it. Despite that, the Jewish nation lives. The Roman Empire is dead, Inquisition is dead, Communism is dead, Nazism is dead, but the Jewish nation is very much alive. Ashkenazim, Spharadim, Mizrachim, Gruzinim, etc. - in the end it means nothing.

And Islamism will be dead, too., btw, just as Communism is.

[aid]

Takeo,

I have a question for you.

Did you visit Moscow in the seventies?

[takeo]

Why this question?
In the early 80's i visited Moscow indeed but all i was interested in at that time was ice-cream. I visited it again in the late 80's and several times during the 90's. Still Russia isn't a western society, and nothing has changed much in the life of ordinary russians, except that living has become harder. Some people however are doing better, more in Moscow than elsewhere, that is correct.
I understand quite well that Jews aren't a people but a religion, and as there are 1000's of different muslims there are 1000's of different jews, who are all very different except that they live in the same country and have the same religious background.

[aid]

The reason I asked, Takeo, was that in the seventies a huge crowd of Jews (who are not a a people of course) would gather outside the only synagogue in Moscow on high holidays.

Foreign guest would usually visit, Americans and Canadians. We would all understand each other very well.

But once, a couple of other guests came. Those were Frenchmen, French Jews. They came to look for supporters of Communism and leftist causes among this crowd! People could not believe what their ears. They just shrugged their shoulders and steppedc away. THen I decided to ask them a question. I asked, why the French Jews, a large community it is, is unable to influence the French policies towards Israel, as the US community does.

They replied lamely: "they are trying..." and went away.

I remembered the episode when I got to know you on the forum. It occured to me that you could have been of these guys and I actually have met you. But if not, I may have met your Party Genossen. That's OK. France is a palce full of mysteries.

Now please tell me this. You claim to be Jewish, but being a Communist, you are an atheist. But since according to you "Jews aren't a people but a religion", how can you be Jewish?

Why do you call yourself a Jew?

What do you have in common with us here?

Why do you come here?

[takeo]

I am not religious, but my family comes from a Jewish origin, and your origin always remains important, especially since Jews are a quite small community and have some history in common.

[takeo]

Well, since I'm born in 1976 I don't think you've met me, but you could have met my parents, yes.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
I am not religious, but my family comes from a Jewish origin, and your origin always remains important, especially since Jews are a quite small community and have some history in common.

But you have called yourself a Jew, have you not?

So how can you be one if you are not religious when you say "Jews aren't a people but a religion".

No matter how I tyr I can't get an answer from you.

It seems you don't know yourself who you are.

Maybe you need just to grow up to overgrow your infantile Commie sickness.

[takeo]

French Jews don't feel the need to influence politics as a community, they are French citizens, they have no common political interests, as they are scattered over the whole French political spectrum (except extremist right-wing), and many of them feel no sympathy for Israel.
Besides French and Western European politics is not all about lobbying and money as American politics, the most important is the party you belong to and the elections, not your etnic or religious background.
It is indeed strange that most Russian Jews today belong to the right-wing and close to the former Yeltsin clan(berezovsky, Guzinski, ...) or yabloko, with some exceptions.

[aid]

There is nothing strange with Russian Jews.

There is everything strange with some of the French Jews.

The inability of the Jewish community in France to organize itself to protect its own interests from the Arabs and other anti--Semites, from the extreme leftists and rightists, and to provide support for Israel is baffling to me.

It seems to be unique to France. Even the former SU the Jews were more outspoken in support of Israel than in free (still) France!

Amazing.

BTW, Berezovsky is not Jewish - he got baptized, Baruch Hashem.

The fewer bastards among the Jewish people, the better.

[takeo]

Historically and scientifically spoken, Jews are not a race but a religion, because many people who joined the Jewish religion/community weren't original Jews (i gave the example of the Khazar Khanat). They also didn't speak the same language and culture and had only their religion in common.
However because they were, because of their religion, always separated from the main population, they created a kind of own culture, and so the sephardim and ashkenazi groups were born. With some goodwill one can consider those to be etnic groups, but the only thing the different etnic groups of Jewish religion had in common their religion.
You can compare it with the Gypsies, who started as an etnic group, but mixed with so much original people and became so different in the countries they stayed (indian gypsies have almost nothing in common with spanish or romanian gypsies) that today they are more a social group than an etnic group.
It is a question one can't have an easy answer, as it is complicated

[takeo]

If there would be a lot of anti-semitism in France than people of jewish background should have a reason to unite, but that isn't the case. We were the first country in the world to gave Jews equal rights (shortly after followed by the US), we never had a KKK, and the latest wave of anti-semitism in france died in 1945. And it's not because you are Jewish that you should defend Israel, that's fascism. In that case the people of german ancestors in the US should have fought for Germany in WWII!
Besides French jews are not unique in this, they are fully integrated in French society. The Moroccan and Tunisian Jews I met were as much against Israel as their Muslim compatriots, and many Belgian, Italian, Hungarian (for example Gyorgy Konrad), etc. Jews don't care at all about being a political pressure group.
And even many American Jews don't care at all about being a political pressure group because they are "jew" and find it a silly idea, as it depends much more to which social group or state they belong that that they have Jewish/ Irish, etc. background. I think the zionist influence in the US is not strong because of a lot of popular or electoral support from the large Jewish community but because of very strong financial support.