They want a state? We offered them a state!

[NewsGuy]

"They want a state? We offered them a state. They want independence? We offered them independence. So why the violence?" asked Shimon Peres today at an international poverty conference in Arab-dominated South Africa.

Peres makes a good point, which brings me to reiterate the basic parameters of the Arab/Israeli conflict.

Contrary to the unrelenting denial of facts that is a perpetual way of life for pro-terrorism supporters, Israel has in fact agreed to virtually all Palestinian demands, even after decades of Palestinian massacres of innocent Israeli citizens.

Israelis, by and large, agree that the Palestinians will be awarded a second state (Jordan being the first Palestinian state). In one peace plan after another Israel offered the Palestinians independence and territory upon which to build their second state. But the Palestinians are the ones who rejected their own independence.

For the most part, the underlying reason for the Palestinian rejection of their so-called national aspirations is that under the plans offered by Israel and the U.S., Israel would survive. This single condition of the existence of a Jewish homeland in Israel, is the basis of Palestinian terrorism and the stuff of which suicide bombers feed on.

In simple terms, the Palestinian national aspirations call only for these outcomes:

1. The total annihilation of Israel through the mass murder of as many Jews as possible.

2. The desecration and conversion of Judaism's holiest places into Islamic mosques.

Where do I come up with these facts? It is not from any Jewish or pro-Israel sources. Rather, the answer may surprise you. I base this solely on the words and deeds of the Palestinians themselves.

From Arafat's public call for a million suicide bombers to march on Jerusalem in a mass Jihad-genocide push, to the actions of the terrorist groups that are part of the unified Palestinian terror front. When Arab terrorists prepare and use bombs loaded with iron nails and tacks and declare their goal of murdering as many Israeli children as possible, I believe them.

When a Muslim mob seized the tomb of Joseph, painted it Koran-green, and then proceeded to use it as a mosque, I look to their actions and draw my own conclusions -- and so should you.

So, I say to good old Shimon Peres, the answer to your question lies in the words and deeds of the Palestinians. Listen to them. Don't waste your time offering more rewards of land and independence for the Palestinians inside the Jewish homeland.

Instead, consider transferring the Palestinians into Gaza, Egypt and Jordan and reinforce the borders. Once there, let them do as they please. Let them overthrow King Jordan Junior or Mubarak or whomever. Let them declare independence and conduct as many Jihads on their Arab brethren as they please.

Just remember, the only way to achieve peace for Israel is to remove the Palestinians' ability to mass murder their Jewish neighbors.

[Teacake]

Newguy ~ you might consider submitting your article to frontpage mag. Do you currently write for any journals?

[DaMan]

Newsguy.... your solution is EXPEL, EXPEL, EXPEL!!!!! Screw 'em all let the Jordanians and the Egyptians take care of the problem Israel made! We (the Israelis) are tired of it and want SOMEBODY ELSE to take over and finish the **** we started! :-(

DaMan

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by DaMan
Newsguy.... your solution is EXPEL, EXPEL, EXPEL!!!!! Screw 'em all let the Jordanians and the Egyptians take care of the problem Israel made! We (the Israelis) are tired of it and want SOMEBODY ELSE to take over and finish the **** we started! :-(

As usual, I don't really understand what you're talking about.

I've been very clear about my solution, which is a separation between the Israeli victims and the Palestinian terrorists. I believe in a defensible international border, capable of stopping Palestinian infiltrators.

But the problem of Arab and Islamic terrorism was not started by Israel, nor is Israel responsible for the Arab crimes against humanity. Still, I see that your solution is to BLAME, BLAME, BLAME the victims and hope that you can fool yourself and others. It hasn't worked so far and I highly doubt that your solution will lead to peace. My solution, however, has worked reliably throughout history and is the basis of peaceful coexistence worldwide.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Teacake
Newguy ~ you might consider submitting your article to frontpage mag. Do you currently write for any journals?

Yes, I'm very much involved in the news industry.

But everything I write here in the Israel Forum is expressly licensed for copying and redistribution by any member of the forum to any other forum, Website or print publication. I just ask that they give credit to www.IsraelForum.com as the source.

In other words, anyone reading this is permitted to copy anything I write for their Website or to upload it to any other Website of their choice free of charge, of course.

btw - Some more articles are also available in the "Free for Webmasters" section of this forum.

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


<snip>
But everything I write here in the Israel Forum is expressly licensed for copying and redistribution by any member of the forum to any other forum, Website or print publication. I just ask that they give credit to www.IsraelForum.com as the source.
<snip>

Beware- I might do just that, here and there :-)

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Instead, consider transferring the Palestinians into Gaza, Egypt and Jordan and reinforce the borders. Once there, let them do as they please. Let them overthrow King Jordan Junior or Mubarak or whomever. Let them declare independence and conduct as many Jihads on their Arab brethren as they please.

Umm... and get hold of nuclear weapons? I think we should all be grateful to Egypt and Jordan for not letting them in.

[yaaqub ishaq]

newsguy,

you write well. however you won't likely get published in any australian newspapers. do you realise how extreme your opinions would be viewed as in places like australia?

[Mediocrates]

Compared to what?

[peacelover]

Originally posted by yaaqub ishaq
newsguy,

you write well. however you won't likely get published in any australian newspapers. do you realise how extreme your opinions would be viewed as in places like australia?

Hi yaaqub

I don't know much about Australian views on the Middle East - what is the typical Australian position? I had thought Oz was quite right wing and pro-Israel, but as I say, I know very little, and could well be completely wrong!

[yaaqub ishaq]

Originally posted by peacelover


Hi yaaqub

I don't know much about Australian views on the Middle East - what is the typical Australian position? I had thought Oz was quite right wing and pro-Israel, but as I say, I know very little, and could well be completely wrong!

most aussies, like i suspect most americans, couldn't care less about the middle east. most people seem to just say 'they're all crazy'.

australia does not have the same pro-israeli bias the US does however. those who do take an interest in middle eastern affairs are often suspicious of both sides. images of israel rolling through the west bank with tanks sit with them equally badly as images of suicide bombings.

recently an australian-jewish group took exception with ABC (the govt-funded but independently run tv station) 'pro-palestinian' coverage of the middle east. the ABC pull few punches in their coverage, they cover suicide bombings, palestinian violence against 'collaborators' and israeli military/settlers' actions.

the pro-israel pressure that flows so strongly through US congress does not exist in australia. in this case the ABC commissioned an independent inquiry to judge their 'biased coverage'. it was judged as fair and the ABC were quite forward about publicising this.

interestingly, one high profile politician (michael kroger? any aussies here?) took the opportunity to boost his jewish community support base by laying into the ABC and supporting jewish criticism. the ABC responded by publicly challenging him to support that conclusion in light of that independent report concluding they were fair. he gave up at that point and issued no further comment.

i hope that's helpful. basically the organised pro-israel support groups that exist in US politics don't exist here. and while some people side with israel, many also side with the palestinians. most probably don't side with either. unlike the US, there's not much social pressure to side with either of them.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by yaaqub ishaq
the pro-israel pressure that flows so strongly through US congress does not exist in australia...

That's true.

Australia is home to an large Muslim population originating mostly in Africa, South Asia and the Mideast.

Australia is a country which encourages immigration to fill its empty landscape, and its open-border policy has resulted in an influx of Muslims, many of whom are virulently anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. As a result, since the outbreak of the Intifada, there has been a steady rise in anti-Semitic violence by Muslims in Australia.

Like other places in the world that have become havens for Muslim immigrants, the media has begun to show an anti-Israeli bias. Sometimes in subtle ways and sometimes in more obvious ways.

I also agree with Yaaqub that for the most part, people in the Western world, including Australia don't really care if Israel would be controlled by Arabs or by Jews. After all, the overwhelming interest of the world is not the rights of one foreign group or another to live in their disputed homeland, but to ensure that cheap oil keeps on flowing from the Middle East.

Otherwise, both the Arabs and Israelis both appear to be perpetual war mongers who are not civilized enough to coexist in peace.

Still, there is a certain naive appeal in a Hollywoodean sense, to root for the underdog. And for the most part, the Saudi-sponsored global propaganda and disinformation campaign has managed to portray the Palestinians as the disadvantaged side.

[yaaqub ishaq]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


That's true.

Australia is home to an large Muslim population originating mostly in Africa, South Asia and the Mideast.

this is true but traditionally they come from diverse backgrounds. they are not a homogeneous group. ameria also has a substantial muslim population yet their image is terrible and their voice unheard.

Australia is a country which encourages immigration to fill its empty landscape, and its open-border policy has resulted in an influx of Muslims, many of whom are virulently anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. As a result, since the outbreak of the Intifada, there has been a steady rise in anti-Semitic violence by Muslims in Australia.

i think you're missing an important issue in australia right now. the liberal (only by name) govt are closing our borders to refugees/boat people. muslim refugees are imprisoned in detention centres and usually sent back home afterwards. there is however a substantial number of muslims who have arrived by more conventional means.

anti-semitic violence is virtually non-existent in australia. discrimination against muslims has however increased strongly since sep 11.

Like other places in the world that have become havens for Muslim immigrants, the media has begun to show an anti-Israeli bias. Sometimes in subtle ways and sometimes in more obvious ways.

again, israel's tactics have not been met with much enthusiasm here. some support israel, others do not. i wouldn't call the coverage biased. only the independent media really tackles the issue in any substantial way, as i highlighted in my last post.

I also agree with Yaaqub that for the most part, people in the Western world, including Australia don't really care if Israel would be controlled by Arabs or by Jews. After all, the overwhelming interest of the world is not the rights of one foreign group or another to live in their disputed homeland, but to ensure that cheap oil keeps on flowing from the Middle East.

australia doesn't really care about cheap oil. our market is tiny, we have no influence over US-dominated global oil policies and wars.

Still, there is a certain naive appeal in a Hollywoodean sense, to root for the underdog. And for the most part, the Saudi-sponsored global propaganda and disinformation campaign has managed to portray the Palestinians as the disadvantaged side.

i doubt the saudis have infiltrated australian media! it really isn't hard for people to view the palestinains as disadvantaged tho. israel invaded, took their land and placed them in refugee camps. we (here on this board) know there are a lot more circumstances surrounding this issue than that, but it doesn't take a saudi-sponsored media campaign for people to feel sympathy for palestinians.

[Mediocrates]

Would that be a coastal thing in Oz? I have relatives on the west coast who came from South Africa a long time ago. One thing they say is that the Jewish community in Oz shares many of the same identity issues with the thoroughly assimilated Jewish community in South Africa. That is, they tend to be very 'Australian' (or South African as it were) and not at all militantly Jewish or Zionist.

[Kapiti]

yaaqub ishaq, I also am Australian although am a militant agnostic (if that makes any sense).

Your comments on Newsguys initial comments are I think very fair. From a person who has been described in this forum as an Arab mouthpiece and much worse I don't think I would argue with any of your comments.

Mediocrates. I think you are right that Australian Jews (and many of my work and social friends are jewish), are generally patriotic Australians. I have never thought what percentage would put their country ahead of their religion but am sure that what ever the number is it would be significantly more than in the US. This is not I think a reflection on the lack of patriatism in the US but rather the lack of militancy/fervour in the religion in Australia.

Newsguy. The idea that you could call Australia's immigration policy an open door policy shows that you have not the slightest idea of what is happening in Australia. Perhaps the single greatest current issue in Australia is our attempts to make our immigration policy as closed to what is currently mostly muslims as possible. It regularly dominates our newspapers and earns us the criticism of the UN and other bodies. My question to you is why you thought it appropriate to write what you did. If you have a source for your comments and I would like to think you do then it is unbelievably mistaken. My suspicion however is that it was entirely a rationalisation in a failed attempt to explain something which might otherwise be seen to be an independant criticism of a position which you hold. I would suggest that it is not in the interests of your maintaining a higher level of credibility when you argue a case without any apparent first hand knowledge of the facts. Sometimes it is best to keep quiet and as a moderater in this forum impartiality and credibility should be important.


Newsguy. I think what you are saying in your original thread is that your answer is to kick all the arabs out of the West Bank and fortify the borders. What about the arabs in Israel, (I mean the Arab Israelis.) Kick them out too. ?? Since you would want secure borders you would probably want to invade your neighbours border areas as in southern Lebanon. If the neighbouring countries were then to attack you what then. The nuclear option ?? Newsguy, you are very very scary.