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Thread: Golden Rule of Islam

  1. #151
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    This is a guest post by Mikey
    An expert scholar on the Islamic Middle East is Bernard Lewis In a “specialised sense” he defined antisemitism as:
    that special and peculiar hatred of Jews, which has its origins in the role assigned to Jews in certain Christian writings and beliefs concerning the genesis of their faith, and which has found modern expressions in such works as the Protocols and similar portrayals of a universal Jewish plot against both God and mankind.
    Based on this definition, he comments:
    anti-Semitism did not exist in the traditional Islamic world. True, Muslim religious and other literature provide ample evidence of prejudice against Jews, and Muslim history records not a few cases of persecution. But - and this is surely the crucial point - these attitudes and these persecutions were not accompanied by the demonological beliefs and conspiratorial fantasies that are characteristic of Christian anti-Semitism in both medieval and modern Europe, and do not differ significantly from the hostility and persecution to which other religious minorities, besides the Jews, have been from time to time subject.
    Noting that the Qur’an shows greater hostility to Jews than to Christians he states that nevertheless:
    the Muslim law makes no such distinction, but treats both subject religions on a footing of equality with each other. In practice, in medieval and in Ottoman times, Jews often fared rather better than Christians, for the obvious reason that unlike their Christian compatriots, they were not suspected of treasonable sympathies with the Christian enemies of the Islamic empires.
    The conservative commentator Daniel Pipes concurs with these point from Lewis. Both Pipes and Lewis also agree that things changed in the 19th century when the Muslim world started to employ antisemitic imagery and themes more common in Europe. This more familiar style of antisemitism was imported into the Middle East from Christian Europeans to Christian Arabs and did not originate from Islamic sources. In effect, Muslims began to ape the antisemitism of European Christians.
    Robert Wistrich, a noted expert on antisemitism, wrote a very interesting paper in 2002 for the American Jewish Committee entitled,Muslim Anti-Semitism: A Clear and Present Danger. He provides examples where Jews are depicted as the enemies of Islam in the Qur’an but notes that in practice, Jews, like Christians, were afforded the status of dhimmis(“protected peoples.”) Whilst Jews had to pay a (poll tax) they were accepted as ahl al-kitab(“peoples of the Book”) and were allowed to practice their faith. Whilst Jews were discriminated against by being dhimmis, it is important to realise that this discrimination was not specifically anti-Jewish, as Christians suffered similiarly. Quoting the work of someone else, Wistrich states:
    Dhimmis were often considered impure and had to be segregated from the Muslim community. Entry into holy Muslim towns, mosques, public baths, as well as certain streets was forbidden them. Their turbans—when they were permitted to wear them—their costumes, belts, shoes, the appearance of their wives and their servants had to be different from those of Muslims in order to distinguish and humiliate them; for the dhimmis could never be allowed to forget that they were inferior beings.
    This is not to say that there were never incidents of violent antisemitism in the Muslim world. As Efraim Karsh points out in his study published two years ago:
    The last and most powerful Jewish tribe – Quraiza – suffered more profusely following the abortive Meccan siege of Medina in the spring of 627. Charged with collaboration with the enemy, the tribe’s 600–800 men were brought in small groups to trenches dug the previous day, seated on the edge, then beheaded one by one and thrown in. The women and children were sold into slavery and the money they fetched, together with the proceeds from the tribe’s possessions, was divided among the Muslims. This process was completed on Muhammad’s deathbed in the form of an injunction ordering the expulsion of Jews (and Christians) from the peninsula: ‘Two faiths will not live together in the land of the Arabs’
    The relevant issue is that Muslims took (and still take), in the words of Daniel Pipes, “a somewhat patronizing view of other religions.” As he states:
    A Muslim believes so confidently in the perfection of Islam that he cannot quite comprehend why Jews and Christians continue to follow their outmoded and imperfect versions of the truth.
    All these scholars note that Muslim antisemitism became rife in the 20th century. As a phenomenon, it has clearly exploded post 9/11, but this does not mean to say that antisemitism is traditionally Islamic. It would be far more accurate to argue that opposition to all other religions has been a fundamental theme in Islamic history.



    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/...-antisemitism/

  2. #152
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Lewis is an expert on Ottoman history. Nothing else.

  3. #153
    Steven
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu View Post
    Lewis is an expert on Ottoman history. Nothing else.
    He was behind the whole democracy in the Middle East idea, at least one of the people behind it.

  4. #154
    andak01
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    He was behind the whole democracy in the Middle East idea, at least one of the people behind it.
    You know Steve, I'm also behind the democracy in the Middle East idea. I just don't think it's worth 10 million Arab and other lives, 6 trillion dollars and 50,000 American lives and a century to achieve. You can't win hearts and minds with threats and bombs.

    The plan of democracy as executed by Bush and company has ended us with two semi-Sharia states in Afghanistan and Iraq, over a million displaced people from Iraq alone, a destabilized Syria full of brooding refuges, a destabilized Pakistan full of Taliban who escaped across the border, etc. We've sucked a trillion dollars out of the economy and crippled our ability to deal with Iran and North Korea. I could go on.

    You have to ask yourself if, given the present result, democracy was EVER the goal in the ME or just so many words.

    BTW, Samuel Huntington was much more in the pocket of the neo-cons than Bernard Lewis. Aside from the way Lewis' words are spun by the right-wing press, I find him rather moderate in his views.

  5. #155
    Steven
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    You know Steve, I'm also behind the democracy in the Middle East idea. I just don't think it's worth 10 million Arab and other lives, 6 trillion dollars and 50,000 American lives and a century to achieve. You can't win hearts and minds with threats and bombs.

    The plan of democracy as executed by Bush and company has ended us with two semi-Sharia states in Afghanistan and Iraq, over a million displaced people from Iraq alone, a destabilized Syria full of brooding refuges, a destabilized Pakistan full of Taliban who escaped across the border, etc. We've sucked a trillion dollars out of the economy and crippled our ability to deal with Iran and North Korea. I could go on.

    You have to ask yourself if, given the present result, democracy was EVER the goal in the ME or just so many words.

    BTW, Samuel Huntington was much more in the pocket of the neo-cons than Bernard Lewis. Aside from the way Lewis' words are spun by the right-wing press, I find him rather moderate in his views.

    I agree the that the price is not worth it. But save the rest, no one is winning the hearts and minds of the Islamic world. It is what it is and they should be trying to win the hearts and minds of the non-Islamic world. Instead of voting terrorist groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood into office. Democracy in the ME is a huge failure. But you as a Muslim have to come up with maybe that was not the reason we went there, beacause of the results. Right it is not the fault of the Muslims.....it is always someone elses fault.


    The UK has gone beyond anyone in catering to Muslims and they have not won their hearts and minds. That is all a fantasy.
    Last edited by Steven; 11-16-2008 at 07:20 PM.

  6. #156
    Agnosthiest
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    It is what it is and they should be trying to win the hearts and minds of the non-Islamic world.
    I am a Filipino. Islamic insurgency is a serious problem in the philippines that has been going on forever.

    The muslim world is hopeless. Its because they dont really value the golden rule. All that matters to a muslim community is their own.

    see, even Andak cant show a muslim "saint" that showed kindness to disbelievers.

  7. #157
    Steven
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnosthiest View Post
    I am a Filipino. Islamic insurgency is a serious problem in the philippines that has been going on forever.

    Muslims are hopeless. Its because they dont really value the golden rule. All that matters to muslims is their own.
    Thanks for sharing that. I recently read that the Philippines let them have their own state within the Philippines and things have actually gotten worse. It is never enough what people do for them and they always stab the host country in the back. They deserve nothing from anyone.

    Eventually the whole world will have the insurgency problem if Muslim immigration is not ended.

  8. #158
    andak01
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    In the case of the Philipines, what would the "host" country be? Spain? The United States? Seems the colonialization of the Philipines and the resulting trauma to the nation's national identity and culture is completely swept under the rug.

  9. #159
    Steven
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    In the case of the Philipines, what would the "host" country be? Spain? The United States? Seems the colonialization of the Philipines and the resulting trauma to the nation's national identity and culture is completely swept under the rug.
    Not working andak. The Philippines is not an Islamic country but the Muslims there are trying to make it one.

  10. #160
    varian
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    In the case of the Philipines, what would the "host" country be? Spain? The United States? Seems the colonialization of the Philipines and the resulting trauma to the nation's national identity and culture is completely swept under the rug.

    You forgot Japan; or wasn't that traumatic??? Have you ever been to the Philippines?

  11. #161
    Agnosthiest
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    In the case of the Philipines, what would the "host" country be? Spain? The United States? Seems the colonialization of the Philipines and the resulting trauma to the nation's national identity and culture is completely swept under the rug.
    There is no host country. We Filipinos are a diverse culture and we rule our Islands.

  12. #162
    andak01
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnosthiest View Post
    There is no host country. We Filipinos are a diverse culture and we rule our Islands.
    Let's go back in history and see how independent you are. First, tell us why your country is named the Philippines? Is that after some hero of native independence?

    The Philippinos established independant rule from Spain in 1898.

    On June 12, 1898, Aguinaldo declared the independence of the Philippines in Kawit, Cavite, establishing the First Philippine Republic under Asia's first democratic constitution.[16]

    So tell us what happened after that. Clear sailing?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...e-American_War

  13. #163
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    I once read somewhere that the US ranks highest on the list of favourable colonisers (from the colonised POV obviously). The timing is a huge factor I'm sure. Portugal and Belgium were bottom of the pile.

  14. #164
    andak01
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
    I once read somewhere that the US ranks highest on the list of favourable colonisers (from the colonised POV obviously). The timing is a huge factor I'm sure. Portugal and Belgium were bottom of the pile.
    I'd like to see that list if you have a link. I do think that America has learned some lessons from the past. Brutal subjegation is not as profitable as giving some level of autonomy. But as in the case of Iraq and other places, you should always put power in the hands of a feeble and corrupt minority. They will always come back to the colonizer for assistance.

  15. #165
    Steven
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    Re: Golden Rule of Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    Brutal subjegation is not as profitable as giving some level of autonomy.
    Maybe that is why the Middle East is such a sewer.

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