Where is the outrage?

[ibrodsky]

Michael Oren has written an editorial that appears in the current Jerusalem Post, in which he compares Sept. 11 to Dec 7 (the attack on Pearl Harbor).

In response to Pearl Harbor, the U.S. mobilized millions of people to fight Japan overseas and convert to a wartime economy at home.

Yet the main response to Sept. 11 has been psychobabble about "feelings of grief."

The WTC massacre was an attack on the U.S. mainland that killed more people than died at Peal Harbor. Most outrageously, the victims were not military personnel, they were ordinary people of every race and religion who were liquidated for the crime of going to work that day.

I agree with Oren 100%. Americans should not only be sad, they should be mad. The response should have been to expand our military so that we could take on all Islamist terrorists in all countries as quickly as possible. Instead, we choose to fight a series of battles that could go on for decades. Worst of all, this approach basically says that while we are fighting in Afghanistan we might open one more front in Iraq. But if you join the Hezbollah in southern Lebanon you are safe to plot and even continue to perpetrate terrorist attacks... as long as you don't target the U.S. directly.

The best thing we can do to honor the people who died on Sept. 11, 2001 is, now that a year has passed, to forget the grief and wage all-out war to ensure our children do not grow up in a world where people live in constant fear of Islamist NeoNazis.

[Vic]

The trouble is that with Pearl Harbour the aggression originated from a clearly defined state entity. Going after terrorism is a much more tedious, almost excruciatingly so, task in some respects: there will be fewer impressive big bangs about it, more quiet backstage work. I do, however, agree that the US should act stronger in the ME, the current Mecca of int'l terrorism (sure, so should Europe too...)

[DanStrat]

Ibrodsky – You asked recently “Where’s The Outrage?”

It seems instead of outrage we have dissenters grabbing the limelight here and abroad. One has to wonder how these hypocritical whiners who live here and at the same time condemn the United States while they take complete advantage of all the benefits of freedom and the liberty our country offers, can live with them-selves. When challenged about this they always rush to the “freedom of speech” rights excuse.

Don’t they recognize that freedom didn’t just fall out of the sky; people gave their lives to obtain it, and have done the same to defend it. These people are freeloaders, living in a dream world. We can no more ignore this battle than we could have ignored Adolph Hitler. This enemy may seem fractional in size militarily compared to the military might we faced 60 years ago, and also in Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf, but the worldwide complications of culture, history, politics, freedom and liberty are enormous.

This conflict, campaign, “America’s New War” is not about America and what we should, or should not have done over the past 5 or 10 or even 50 years. It is indeed about Islam! The vehement anger directed at the west by men like Osama bin Laden has been within Islam for centuries, and so has their frustration and always their hatred for others they blame for their plight. These things are not our doing; we have simply become the latest embodiment of a long line of interfering infidels. Yes, in recent times we have been forced to go to war against Iraq, and yes, we still impose sanctions against them, and we still support Israel. Yes, we have our military stationed in areas of the holy land in Saudi Arabia, but unless we are willing to abandon the Jewish people, allow Sadam Hussein the freedom to continue to build weapons of terror and mass destruction, and pretend that we accept the charade that Islam is a peaceful “religion”, and that the oil from the region is not the fuel that drives the western world, the terrorist network will not be content, nor will they live in this world peacefully with us. Americans must be better world citizens, okay this is a good idea, but it won’t mean much to the Islamic world. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Look at our efforts to promote peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians; one side is going to hate us no matter what we do. The Islamic fundamentalists and extremists stand against us, because we stand in their way to turn back the hands of time, to dictatorial, oppressive control, totalitarianism under the guise of religion.

It seems the “Anti-American – “Anti-War” “Peace Activists” are failing to understand the challenge is not just political. And we are not yet ready to discuss the uncomfortable topics openly yet, but the fact of the matter is that Fundamentalist Islamic leaders, Clerics, Mullahs and Narcissistic “War Lords” like Osama bin Laden all over the world have declared “Jihad” holy war, not only against America, but against all the non-Islam believers, all those of Christian faiths, all those from the west. “Any American civilian, or non-believing infidel is a target, if they are paying taxes they are the enemy and should die.” This is indeed a war of cultures; we are just not ready to admit it yet. Osama bin Laden, and all Islamic Fundamentalists like him and all the other terrorist groups want to push the world into a war dividing Islam against Christianity. They are insisting on it.

The United States was attacked and, at the very least by an Islamic terrorist, extremist act of war, just new methods of delivery. The United States, Israel, maybe England and maybe India and possibly a hand full of other nations will lead the nations of free and democratic societies to finally put an end to this madness, and these atrocities committed against free societies. The United States, England, and our allies (if they can be called that) can no longer live like we have, cowering with our collective heads in the sand. Protecting ourselves by merely hoping that the bad neighborhood remains afar and doesn’t come to us. The Islamic barbarians have this time upped the ante. They have brought the bad neighborhood to us this time, and have made it painfully clear that they will stop at nothing. They have no intention to live in this world peacefully with us, or the Jewish people or anyone else that shares the beliefs of a free democratic society. They have forced our hand and so be it.

The suggestion of some that the United States was ready to “Start a War” is laughable. It is hard to imagine being less prepared for the events of September 11th. These murders just killed thousands of people in plain view of most of the world via television and the absolute terror, death and inhumane atrocities they inflict on the people they control within their regimes will continue to surface for of us all to see. You would think that the “Peace Activists” and the voice of the far left would be eager to fight a foe that totally eliminates the voice, and thereby the intellect, and the contributions of half of their populations, (women) wouldn’t you? The oppression of women is so cruel and brutal within Islam that it of course crushes free thought, but also reduces the existence of women to nearly non-existence, which begs the question why are you marching and protesting? Poverty and education are at the root of these problems worldwide.

They have not high jacked Islam, or twisted religious beliefs of an Islamic religion to suit their extremist insanity. There is no peaceful Islamic religion, merely an ideology and it is not peaceful. The Koran is steeped in violence and it instructs violence. Mohamed’s total disregard and documented instructions for the repression, manipulation and devaluation of women is beyond one’s imagination in any form of a modern world.

The world finally has the opportunity, the necessary tools, and hopefully soon will garner the collective will to eradicated these terrorists animals and destroy the Islamists will to fight period. There are two more questions that should be asked here, 1.) How many more innocent people will die here in the U. S. or in other free democratic countries like Israel before the pacifists, "Anti-America" - "Anti-War" activists wake up? And 2.) How long do you think it will be before another terrorist attack happens again, and maybe in your city?

How easy it would be to deliver a Nuclear Weapon on board a corporate jet (provided by the Saudis of course) and detonate it right over downtown Washington DC, or New York, or any city in Europe or the USA for that matter. Are we really this stupid? Are we not forgetting that less than 1% of the containerized freight traveling the oceans of the world has any level of inspection what so ever? Are we not forgetting that Osma bin Laden actually owns and maintains a secret shipping fleet and uses the flags of a variety of different countries, allowing him to hide his ownership and transport goods, arms, drugs, and yes recruits. All this is recorded in court testimony. In 1998, one of bin Laden’s cargo ships unloaded supplies in Kenya for the suicide bombers who two weeks later destroyed the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. You tell me if we aren’t living in a Fools Paradise of our own making. Seems our concern for the almighty dollar has clouded our vision a bit doesn’t it? Are we going to continue to skip down the yellow brick lane, whistling Zippity Doo Dah with our heads in the clouds? Does it not sink in that this terrorist network is worldwide and has been for some time?

We have been living under a false sense of safety, and security in an environment foolishly thought to be devoid of danger for us here in the U.S. for decades.

Non-violence and passivity only "work," when there are other compelling elements at work, such as growing up in the most powerful nation in the world with men and women willing to put their lives on the line for our freedom and liberty and the safety of our society. Passivity and submission are suicidal behaviors in this current environment.

All the “Anti-War” & “Anti-America” airheads are laughable. Surely these “intellectuals” must be able to see, as aforementioned, just how foolish we have become in allowing ourselves to live in a fool’s paradise with the futile expectation that human nature had somehow changed. Surely one can see the vulnerabilities exposed recently in our totally open and porous society, and that in order to continue to enjoy freedom and liberty for all we have to defend it again because there is as there always has been evil and evil people in this world. Isn’t it interesting that democratic nations seem to never get into wars with each other? Just a thought.

We selfishly assumed that we were secure, as long as this terrorism was happening on the other side of the world, and as long as our military kept us safe. We assumed our world was safe, in an environment foolishly thought to be devoid of danger. As I said before, a pacifistic approach is mindless and if carried out, suicidal.

We must find new ways to wage this worldwide campaign. I suggest we stop complaining about the problems we are faced with, and start putting our collective heads together to find solutions and methods to obtain the desired results before Saddam has one or more of the terrorist groups deliver us a Nuclear weapon or any WMD in one of the Saudi’s Corporate Jets, and we have 100,000 or millions of people dead.

We are all in this one together folks, the “Anti-America” – “Anti-War” activists are just as vulnerable as those that died in the 9/11 attacks.

Does anyone think for one minute that this terrorism is finished? Just look at the last few weeks, Bali, Manila, Moscow, Maryland, VA, AL.

Wheres the outrage is right?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Vic
The trouble is that with Pearl Harbour the aggression originated from a clearly defined state entity. Going after terrorism is a much more tedious, almost excruciatingly so, task in some respects: there will be fewer impressive big bangs about it, more quiet backstage work. I do, however, agree that the US should act stronger in the ME, the current Mecca of int'l terrorism (sure, so should Europe too...)

As Benjamin Netanyahu pointed out, terrorists are not suspended in mid air. They are able to operate effectively because they have state sponsors.

So the first thing we should do is deliver ultimatums to all of the states that we know are harboring terrorists. For example, we know for certain that leaders of terrorist groups are living in Syria. Yet we have not clearly identified Syria as a target. Plus, Syria and Iraq are two countries that help ensure continuation of the ME conflict throught their intransigence, propaganda, and tendency to blame the Jews/Israel for all of their domestic problems.

Admittedly, if we knocked out all terrorist-supporting regimes there would still be terrorist cells scattered among dozens of countries. But they would be very demoralized, and their ability to coordinate activities would be severely limited. Without state sponsors, raising money, setting up training camps, and carrying out big attacks would be exceedingly difficult.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by DanStrat

They have not high jacked Islam, or twisted religious beliefs of an Islamic religion to suit their extremist insanity. There is no peaceful Islamic religion, merely an ideology and it is not peaceful. The Koran is steeped in violence and it instructs violence. Mohamed’s total disregard and documented instructions for the repression, manipulation and devaluation of women is beyond one’s imagination in any form of a modern world.

There are two major problems with your viewpoint. First, there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. Do you really believe all of them are committed to jihad against the West? If so, what do you propose to do about it?

Take a good hard look at Christianity and Judaism--particularly some of the so-called "orthodox" strains. Is there nothing out of place in the modern world? Is there nothing you would change?

I think it is possible to mold a modern form of Islam that would be as innocuous as Judaism and Christianity are in the hands of their respective moderates.

[ComfortablyNumb]

I agree with the points above. But I would like to add what I think is the "cause" of this mass stupidity that "USA is about to start a war". It's Rules of Engagement. As mentioned above, when JAPANESE planes dropped bombs on Pearl Harbour, everyone KNEW that they are Japanese... of course they had the marking and the flags, etc etc.
Well what would have happened if all these planes dropping bombs were without ANY markings? What if they had US Airforce markings or British?

The rules of egaging an enemy has been changed by the Islamic fundamentalists. It's no longer country vs country... it's now Culture vs Culture (as pointed out above). Yet we refuse to destroy the enemy simple because the enemy has not marked itself as a country. I find that rather idiotic. Of course terrorists are still capable of mass murder... why? Cause they know that no one will go to get them, because nations are still debating who it is that attacked them.

[Mediocrates]

Get out your flags and roll, boys roll. Oh yeah you're the one true patriot. A Jew free world bowing in the mosque.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ibrodsky



I think it is possible to mold a modern form of Islam that would be as innocuous as Judaism and Christianity are in the hands of their respective moderates.

Judaism has had about 3,500 years to evolve to the present and Christianity has had about 2,000 years.

Lets suppose that Islam needs an additional 500 years or so to moderate what good would that do? It certainly wouldn’t do my children any good or their children and so on…

When Judaism and Christianity were in their infancy there were no biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.

I couldn’t even begin to imagine Radical Muslims with today’s weapons.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Originally posted by Manuel


So, the only truly patriotic Americans are those that support military action??? Mobilization of the military certainly has it's place. I certainly would agree with the military actions the US has undertaken in Afghanistan (after all, we're the dumbf**** that helped the Taliban rise to power in the first place). However, what exactly do you propose? I got it...we could bomb all the nations that have a Muslim majority.

But I think the point is we KNOW what countries out there are fairly openly supporting terrorism. eg Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, etc. Saudi too I am sure, but of course no one will touch them since they are "US allies". I highly doubt that the secret service agencies of the world do not know who's involved and where. I just do not understand why they just openly do not say "Here is a report, it confimes 100% that Syria is harbouring XXXX and Iraq is developoing XXXX and Iran is paying for XXXX etc etc.

[Mediocrates]

This is why it is healthier to have the same kind of world view as the PRC. There are no allies there are no friends. There are merely partners. Sometimes you have to cut partners loose and get new partners. Sometimes you have to kill your partners. In the end it's far more humane to be pragmatic than it is pragmatic to be humane.

The US and the industrialized world in general should revisit its relationships with all 'allies' on a regular basis and examine the worth of that allegiance. And that is not simply 'unilateralist adventurism" it is merely hard headed common sense to understand what your own strategic goals are.

Think of the interconnections. Without oil the oil states have no wherewithal to puchase billions of dollars in high tech weaponry with which to influence our Congress through the AIA (Aerospace Industry PAC - about 4X the dollar volume of AIPAC) and by which weaponry they threaten each other and us which makes us give in to more concessions for oil. We are literally paying them to hold us captive.

These are not allies - but they are partners and that partnership should exist as long as it suits our strategic objectives. When it does not then they are just another customer for something we don't want to sell them. They can tighten the oil spigot but it won't generate any long term capital - economic or poltical, to force our hands.

[cerulean]

This article concurs with the editorial mentioned in the top post.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/0...ion/16john.htm
Culture & Ideas 9/16/02
BY JOHN LEO
Rage is not the rage

Sociologist Amitai Etzioni sees one thing missing in all the polling data on American attitudes in the wake of September 11–anger. Last week Etzioni's Communitarian Network issued the report "American Society in the Age of Terrorism," an analysis of post-9/11 poll- ing. Unsurprisingly, the report finds more interest in family, spirituality, and volunteerism and more trust in government, though "all these effects have begun to recede, and are predicted to decline further if no new attacks occur." But "there can be little doubt that, by and large, the American people were decidedly low key in their expressions of anger at those who attacked us"–a very unusual response to a mass slaughter, Etzioni says.

Why so little anger? "It looks as though Alan Wolfe was right," Etzioni said. His reference is to Boston College sociologist Alan Wolfe. In his books One Nation, After All (1997)and Moral Freedom (2001), Wolfe reported that nonjudgmentalism is not just an ethic confined to the media and other elites–it has become normal middle-class morality. Wolfe found that Americans are now morally tentative and very reluctant to criticize the behavior and attitudes of others. This makes the nation far more tolerant, but it also constructs a laissez-faire morality–a presumption that almost all behavior is beyond criticism and that even destructive acts deserve understanding rather than judgment. . . .

=========
Wolfe's opinions seem to ring true. This type of tolerance can work out all right so long as it is not put to a serious test. However, if carried too far, it could be world-endangering, seriously. There has to be some way to get across the idea that most differences in culture are fine, but some cultural practices and beliefs are wrong.

[Mediocrates]

Such a fine line, the difference between how we feel about them 'here' vs. them 'there'. After all American society is more tolerant of Arabs today than it was of Catholics, Jews shortly after WW1. We are certainly more tolerant now than we were before. One would hope that is the case in any society that moves forward.

Now John Leo, et. al. have made their recent careers on lambasting the PC-ishness they perceive around them so clearly to them we are TOO tolerant and have skins that have grown too thin to withstand anything.

What is the point of tolerance? Perhaps the more fundamental question is who is it good for? Do we espouse a tolerant attitude to make ourselves feel good about social evolution or do we do it to sincerely advance the cause of others. Is it altruism or pride?

What is important is understanding how this translates into a kind of strange ethnical gourmandy. How do we end up where everything is everything and we've thrown the moral compass out the window? That is something I'd like to know.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

Lets suppose that Islam needs an additional 500 years or so to moderate what good would that do? It certainly wouldn’t do my children any good or their children and so on…

I think if the U.S. fiercely prosecutes the war against militant Islam you will see mainstream Islam reform itself in a big hurry.

When Judaism and Christianity were in their infancy there were no biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.

I couldn’t even begin to imagine Radical Muslims with today’s weapons.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and Pakistan's government is hardly stable. So it's quite imaginable.

The good news is that 1) Pakistan has no way to deliver such weapons to the U.S. or Israel, and 2) India also has nukes.

Anyway, I suspect that if Islamic and Arab terrorists are defeated in country after country there will be a movement to reform Islam. My concern is whether our side has the will to fight to that extent...

[DanStrat]

Originally posted by Ibrodsky: There are two major problems with your viewpoint.....First, there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. Do you really believe all of them are committed to jihad against the West? If so, what do you propose to do about it?

You bring up a couple of good points.
1.) Correct, there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, chilling isn’t it?
2.) Of course I don’t believe all or even most are committed to Jihad, the problem is that if even a small percentage of them are it is still a large number of them. Let’s not forget that Adolph Hitler was able to rule Germany and nearly take over Europe with only 30% of the German population in support of his views and his oppressive regime. Where is the outcry from the non-supportive Muslims against their brothers? It seems like the voices from those that oppose terrorism and militant Islam are pretty quite and many that are not committed to Jihad still support terrorist activities in various ways, some significant and some merely submissively.

3.) What to do about it - Yes, many non-Jihadists have to submit to terrorists and militant Islamism or die as collaborators of non-Islamic values. This just validates why this ideology needs to be completely redirected, and that may mean that any form of militant Islam has to be pretty much eradicated by force. Force seems to be all that they understand. They are insisting on violence and “Holy War” as evidenced by all the murderous attacks in Israel, and terrorist activities all over the world, and now here in the U.S.

You also mentioned: “I think it is possible to mold a modern form of Islam that would be as innocuous as Judaism and Christianity are in the hands of their respective moderates.”
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I would be so happy to think this was possible. One can only wonder in who’s lifetime, or what events will have to occur to bring this about. I would hazard to guess that this will never happen unless the will to commit violence in the name of Allah and Islam in the attempt to continue the spread of Islam and the Arab National Movement is crushed, as was the will to spread Nazism and the will to fight for Shintoism 57 years ago.

You mentioned that you think if the U.S. fiercely prosecutes the war against militant Islam you will see mainstream Islam reform itself in a big hurry.
Let’s hope so. Just how fiercely the U.S. has to prosecute the war against militant Islam, and how to best achieve the desired goals are the big questions.

Anyway, I suspect that if Islamic and Arab terrorists are defeated in country after country there will be a movement to reform Islam. My concern is whether our side has the will to fight to that extent...
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Again, let’s hope so, but the questions still remain, 1.) When are we going to understand who and what the enemy is? 2.) Will, or should the U.S. or the western world take this battle on one country at a time? This method could take a hundred years. I personally don’t think militant Islam will allow this to happen; “peaceful Islamic Leaders” don’t have the ability to keep the lid on this element of their society. However a somewhat democratic Iraq, with their people getting back on their feet economically, a rebuilt infrastructure throughout their country, and a governing body that is not stealing their wealth, and repressing their entire society with a tyrannical regime will go a long way toward extending the willingness to accept the winds of change throughout the region.

[L@mplighterM]

So when is the US going to start prosecuting the war against Muslims? It seems to me that the US is quite willing to look the other way when it comes to Pakistan. According to the official release from the US State Department Arafat isn't even a terrorist. What a ****en joke!

How can the US or any other nation tackle terrorism when they don't know the difference between a terrorist and a hole in the ground? I've heard Bush make speeches explaining how peaceful Islam is and telling us about the wonders of Islam.

Its quite true that the US went to Afghanistan to eliminate bin Laden and his followers. Where's Omar? There are indications that Omar was most likely let go on the orders of the current Afghan President. I remember quite well watching Hamid Karzai's on TV and he clearly indicated that he didn't want to prosecute Omar the one eyed devil. That didn't wash well with the American administration and so he did an about face the following day.

Catching that SOB Omar and putting him on trial in the US would have been the right thing.

Worldwide support for toppling Hussein is non-existent at the moment although it seems to have grown slightly in the last few days. What was that? Either you're for us or against us!

Visiting forums in the EU it seems like there's a hell of a lot of people against the US. I would say somewhere around 50% of the European population is against the US attacking Iraq. Politicians have to listen to the voters or else they may not get re elected or elected.

Only a hardliner a leader of Mega Superpower with dictatorial powers would be able to tackle Islamic Fundamentalism with ruthlessness.

The US may end up tackling Hussein but as soon as images of dead Iraqi civilians and reports of dead American soldiers hits the news public opinion will quickly shift.