Haniyeh: "God has granted us a great victory ... for our entire people."

[Fall]

Are you honestly convinced that the Jews of Israel are brutal and savage?

No, and i have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything on this forum, or anywhere else rather. Try to discredit me as much as you want, by comments have been valid. I only used your quote to show you how easily and manipulative that quote was. I have zero hatred or stereotypes for the Jews within Israel who insist on peace and humanity for everyone regardless of there faith or race.

Nice dodging the question i asked you btw. Aiming at a U.N. ambulance and firing a tank shell is brutal. War is brutal, and war is one of the IDF's specialties. If you think the IDF and as most soldiers are, are not brutal you are a fool.

[Mediocrates]

If Hamas wants to claim this is a divine victory then I wish them many more like it. In 1967 Nasser told Hussein of Jordan that they had Tel Aviv in flames in order to prod him to commit his troops. Of course that was nonsense but it doesn't stop them from proclaiming it a victory to this very day.

[ItsMyJewty]

Fall: war is one of the IDF's specialties

Yes, I suppose that makes sense... IDF's an army.

[CanDo]

No, and i have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything on this forum, or anywhere else rather. Try to discredit me as much as you want, my comments have been valid.

You are such a dishonest person.

You said: "Would you have me cry for the Israelis, who chose the brutal, savage Palestinian killers, as their leaders? See what i did there? Thats pretty much how to some up this conflict from both sides."

I realize that you were trying to turn my words back at me, but you did so by being sleazy and dishonest.

You portray the IDF as brutal, savage killers, equating them to the terrorists who specifically and intentionally target civilians. And then you said that your comparison sums up the conflict for both sides, once again equating Israel's efforts for self defense as the same as the Palestinian intentionally murdering Israel's Jews, for over 60 years.

Then you have the dishonest gall to say that you have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything?! You outright lie, and then attempt to retract the very words that anyone can read? What do you think, that everyone is blind?

Idiot!

I only used your quote to show you how easily and manipulative that quote was.

Yes, but only enemies of Israel and antiSemites would use such dishonest, sleazy words.

I have zero hatred or stereotypes for the Jews within Israel who insist on peace and humanity for everyone regardless of there faith or race.

Is that why you used stereotyping in your example?

Nice dodging the question i asked you btw. Aiming at a U.N. ambulance and firing a tank shell is brutal. War is brutal, and war is one of the IDF's specialties. If you think the IDF and as most soldiers are, are not brutal you are a fool.

War is brutal, but terrorism against civilians is even more heinous. When you equate the IDF, in defending their country, and trying to avoid civilian casualties, sometimes at the cost of their own lives, or safety, the same as terrorists deliberately targeting Jewish families, it is very dishonest of you, and obviously deliberate.

You are now accusing the IDF of targeting UN ambulances!? The only times that the IDF targets ambulances is when they are obviously in use by the Palestinian Terrorists. The Palestinians use ambulances, or strap bombs to unwitting children, and hide behind civilians, and hide in civilian homes, in order to attack Jews. They know that Jews are very reluctant to harm any civilians, so the Palestinians take advantage of that.

You post from ignorance and lack of education, and it shows.

[Fall]

antiSemite

Lol, didn't even take you a day before accusing me because i criticize the IDF.

You are now accusing the IDF of targeting UN ambulances!? The only times that the IDF targets ambulances is when they are obviously in use by the Palestinian Terrorists. The Palestinians use ambulances, or strap bombs to unwitting children, and hide behind civilians, and hide in civilian homes, in order to attack Jews. They know that Jews are very reluctant to harm any civilians, so the Palestinians take advantage of that.

You post from ignorance and lack of education, and it shows.

Actually your lack of education shows your ignorance, the UN attacks have been clearly documented for at least a week now. Then again, i guess every article i show you that shows IDF doing something wrong is AntiSemitic. Are you going to dismiss Christian Science Monitor as Anti Semitic as well?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0109/p25s14-wome.html

[CanDo]

Lol, didn't even take you a day before accusing me because i criticize the IDF.

You are an antiSemite. But the reason is not because you criticize the IDF, but because of your total ignorance about the conflict. You are quick to voice your worthless opinion, but because all of your views are totally void of any knowledge of the history of the conflict of Arab against Jew, your ignorance exposes your antiSemitism.

Many uninformed, uneducated, semi-literate people, like yourself, who don't have the ability to fully understand issues, act out, either through jealousy, or just plain animus towards others. In your case, you are hanging out on a Jewish forum to build your small eqo.

Actually your lack of education shows your ignorance, the UN attacks have been clearly documented for at least a week now.

During a war against terrorism, where the enemy hides in ambulances, mosques and within civilian homes, it is extremely difficult to engage in combat clinically, without doing some harm to civilians, or without being blamed for something that the terrorists have has orchestrated to make you look bad.

Unfortunately, you don't have the talent or ability to look beyond the headlines and think for yourself.

[KiwiWriter]

Aiming at a U.N. ambulance and firing a tank shell is brutal. War is brutal, and war is one of the IDF's specialties. If you think the IDF and as most soldiers are, are not brutal you are a fool.

When exactly did the IDF do that??? I do recall a story that came out of the Lebanon conflict about an Israeli missile fired at a Lebonese red cross ambulance, but that was very soundly debunked. BTW how many soldiers do you actually know or have you actually met?

[CanDo]

No, and i have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything on this forum, or anywhere else rather. Try to discredit me as much as you want, my comments have been valid.

I am repeating this post to you proving your dishonesty and antiSemitism. You ignored it before because you either don't have the ability to respond as a rational adult, or because you have a dishonest agenda and are not interested in the truth, or because you are just plain dumb!

You said: "Would you have me cry for the Israelis, who chose the brutal, savage Palestinian killers, as their leaders? See what i did there? Thats pretty much how to some up this conflict from both sides."

I realize that you were trying to turn my words back at me, but you did so by being sleazy and dishonest.

You portray the IDF as brutal, savage killers, equating them to the terrorists who specifically and intentionally target civilians. And then you said that your comparison sums up the conflict for both sides, once again equating Israel's efforts for self defense as the same as the Palestinian intentionally murdering Israel's Jews, for over 60 years.

Then you have the dishonest gall to say that you have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything?! You outright lie, and then attempt to retract the very words that anyone can read? What do you think, that everyone is blind?

Idiot!

[Mediocrates]

Charges and countercharges about who's responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza.

Rod Nordland
Newsweek Web ExclusiveJan 20, 2009 | Updated: 6:39 p.m. ET Jan 20, 2009

It was 11:30 p.m. on Jan. 17, in a complex of apartment buildings at the Nuseirat refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, and Israel had just declared it would impose a unilateral ceasefire to begin at 2 a.m. The incessant sorties of Israeli jet bombers stopped almost immediately, but then suddenly there was a terrific whoosh, louder even than a bomb explosion. It was another of Hamas's homemade Qassam rockets being launched into Israel—and the mobile launchpad was smack in the middle of the four buildings, where every apartment was full, most of them with newly made refugees.

On this occasion, fortunately, there was no Israeli retaliation. At places all over Gaza, however, Palestinian civilians have not been so lucky. Israel blames Hamas for using housing areas, hospitals, schools and mosques to launch attacks into Israel or against its soldiers, provoking defensive counter-fire that it says is responsible for most of the civilian casualties. Hamas retorts that Israel was using indiscriminate force with complete disregard for civilians in the way, especially in its efforts to assassinate Hamas leaders. There are plenty of examples to support both their contentions.

In eastern Jabaliya, just north of Gaza City, an entire neighborhood—at least 50 homes—had been bombed by the Israelis, then occupied with tank units, and then methodically demolished house-by-house, some of them with bulldozers, others with high explosives. In several hours of interviews, every one of the residents interviewed in eastern Jabaliya insisted that there had been no provocation from the area, no resistance fighters, and no rocket launchings. "They are punishing us because they can't reach the resistance to punish them," said Majdi Qatari, a lawyer whose home was one of those destroyed, leaving 13 people homeless. Near him, Najah Abd Rabo shook her head and said Israeli actions were beyond comprehension. "They were claiming there are tunnels under here," she said. Hamas fighters use tunnels, often short ones that are little more than bunkers, to pop out and launch attacks and then get back in, hiding from Israel's ubiquitous surveillance drones, reemerging in a house or backyard as an unarmed civilian. "There aren't any tunnels around here, we are not resistance," she said. Yet not more than 20 feet away from Najah, there was just such a tunnel, which Israeli troops had unearthed. Right in the middle of the road, it had a convincingly camouflaged roof that matched the rest of the road. Inside it was shored up with timbers and concrete.
Down the road from the non-existent tunnel was Khalid Abd Rabo, who claimed that Israeli troops fired on his daughters and mother as they left his home under a white flag, killing Suad, 9, and Amal, 2, and gravely wounding Samer, 4, who has since been evacuated to Belgium for treatment. "The children died before my eyes," he said. "Four days later they came back and destroyed the house." Khalid, who had been a policeman with the anti-Hamas Fatah party, said the Israeli troops fired at them from only 22 yards away. His mother was wounded; he could not explain why they spared him. Surrounded by neighbors, he had no criticism of Hamas, but later on one of his relatives took a journalist aside and said that Hamas's actions had brought retaliation on such communities, while accomplishing nothing militarily. "We blame Israel but we also blame Hamas, because Hamas was not able to defend the people," he said, asking that his name not be used for fear of reprisal by Hamas militants.

Hamas officials accuse the Israelis of reflexively blaming them for provoking attacks, and even when they are retaliating, using excessive force. "I don't understand how Palestinians would use other Palestinians as a human shield," said Ahmed Yousef, Hamas's deputy foreign minister. "They consider all Palestinians collateral damage."

The most notorious of attacks killing civilians was the bombing of a UNRWA-run school, Faqhourah School, which was being used to house people newly homeless from the fighting. Forty-three persons were killed in the attack, and some of them lay dying while troops denied them medical assistance. At least two other UNRWA schools were hit by Israeli bombs. UNRWA head John Ging said the Israeli excuse that the schools were being used as firing positions against them is implausible. "These people had already fled the fighting, some of them lost everything they had. Do you think they'd tolerate someone setting up positions there?" In addition, he said, UNRWA staff strictly controlled access to the schools and would not have allowed armed men in.

Isreali Defense Forces spokesperson Avital Leibovich, head of the IDF's foreign-press branch, counters that the military has documentary evidence including aerial surveillance tapes of the northern part of Gaza City "in which you can see schools next to [Hamas] training camps, launching sites in or near schools or from the streets themselves …When fire is opened at us and soldiers are in a life or death situation, we protect ourselves and Hamas is accountable for casualties if it chooses to put a launching site near schools and hospitals." She also gave NEWSWEEK a copy of what she said was a Hamas map which paratroopers recovered during ground operations inside Gaza. "It shows how a neighborhood was taken and divided into three war zones. Hamas centers were scattered over the neighborhood including a gas depot with explosive charges … On the map, you can see the Football Association and Technical School are surrounded by 45 Hamas positions, from which Hamas fired."

Many Gazans have no problem with the idea of Hamas attacking Israelis, but complain that they made a disappointing job of it this time. Only 10 Israeli soldiers were killed in the three-week-long operation, compared to more than 200 dead Hamas fighters, according to independent Palestinian figures. And thousands of rockets fired into southern Israel killed just three civilians there. "There's nothing in Gaza but buildings," said a former Fatah military commander, who gave the name Mahmoud Barbakh. "No fighter can fight except in the streets, we can't fight Israel in the open." Yet Hamas did precious little fighting, he said, while ticking off half a dozen cases of Fatah militants who were deliberately shot in the legs by Hamas during the Israeli war, some for violations of Hamas orders putting them under house arrest.

One of the most notorious incidents during the war was the Jan. 15 shelling of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society buildings in the downtown Tal-al Hawa part of Gaza City, followed by a shell hitting their Al Quds Hospital next door; the subsequent fire forced all 500 patients to be evacuated. Asked if there were any militants firing from the hospital or the Red Crescent buildings, hospital director general Dr. Khalid Judah chose his words carefully. "I am not able to say if anyone was using the PRCS buildings [the two Palestine Red Crescent Society buildings adjacent to the hospital], but I know for a fact that no one was using the hospital." In the Tal-al Hawa neighborhood nearby, however, Talal Safadi, an official in the leftist Palestinian People's Party, said that resistance fighters were firing from positions all around the hospital. He shrugged that off, having a bigger beef with Hamas. "They failed to win the battle." Or as his fellow PPP official, Walid al Awad, put it: "It was a mistake to give Israel the excuse to come in."

Perhaps a doctor at Shifa Hospital summed it up best. "Hamas doesn't care about anything," he said, "and the Israelis will kill anyone to get to Hamas." Today Hamas threw a victory parade. A few hundred young men with green flags marched through the middle of Gaza City, one of them riding on a cart at the head of the procession and holding aloft a chunk of metal, purportedly from an Israeli tank. No one lined the streets to cheer them on. No one poured out from his or her home to join the parade. Most Hamas critics in Gaza are afraid to openly say what they think, but sometimes actions (or the absence of them) speak louder than words.

With reporting by Joanna Chen/Jerusalem

http://www.newsweek.com/id/180691/output/print

[Mediocrates]

Over 6000 tons of humanitarian aid transferred to Gaza - Hamas terrorists hijack international aid COGAT has had numerous reports that Hamas gunmen are hijacking international aid being brought to Gaza.

Ministry of Defense Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories Office of the Spokesman21st January, 2009

Kerem Shalom, Karni, Nahal Oz and Erez crossings operated on Tuesday enabling humanitarian movements and transfer of humanitarian goods in to Gaza. Throughout the day a total of 210 trucks laden with 6489 tons of supplies at the request of various international organizations, donations from Turkey, Egypt and an Israeli Arab organization all made their way to Gaza. 10 trucks of an Egyptian donation of 227 tons of flour entered directly in to Gaza though Kerem Shalom. COGAT has had numerous reports that Hamas gunmen are hijacking international aid being brought to Gaza. Also, 11 mortars were fired at Israel many of them landing in close vicinity of Kerem Shalom, Nahal Oz and Karni crossings.

Also, 443,000 liters of heavy duty diesel and 198 tons of domestic gas were transferred to the Gaza Strip via Nahal Oz fuel depot. Since the beginning of the operation, 48,426 tons of humanitarian supplies have been transferred to Gaza in 1693 trucks. Also, 2,706,351 liters of fuel have been conveyed through Nahal Oz and Kerem Shalom.

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42427

[Mediocrates]

January 21, 2009: Hamas thought they were invulnerable to Israeli attack. By placing so many of their military and government facilities in densely populated residential neighborhoods, they believed any Israeli bombing or shelling would cause high, and politically unacceptable, civilian losses. But the Israelis used surprise, more precision than expected, and innovations like calling civilians in the target area and telling them to get out before the bombs hit nearby. As a result, most of the 1,300 Palestinian dead were Hamas personnel, and nearly all the damaged structures were those used by Hamas. The Palestinians cranked up the spin machine anyway, and accused the Israelis of war crimes and genocide. But Israel responded with a media campaign featuring aerial videos of Hamas fighters setting up mortars and rockets next to schools and residential neighborhoods. This didn't stop the usual alliance of leftists, anti-Semites and Islamic radicals from calling Israel names. But the mud didn't stick nearly as much as in the past. It's as if the Israeli campaign was seeking to humiliate and discredit Hamas, as much as it was to destroy military and government assets.
Dozens of senior Hamas officials were killed by smart bomb attacks. The families of these Hamas leaders often died as well. Israel ignored Hamas attempts to protect its leaders by surrounding them with women and children in residential areas. What dismayed Hamas the most was Israel finding the location of their officials. Even before the ceasefire took effect on the 18th, Hamas death squads were rounding up the usual suspected (members of rival Fatah, and anyone else unlucky enough to be suspect) for torture and execution. The UN did not pay much attention to this, as it has been going on for over two years in Gaza. In that time, over 400 Fatah members have been killed by Hamas death squads, and many more Fatah (and any other Hamas rivals) tortured, wounded or jailed. Hamas apparently didn't realize that there were other ways to get target locations, besides informants on the ground. But all they understood was informants, so Hamas went after informants, and Hamas felt better after. But the bombings continued.

Israel believes it has destroyed 60 percent of the 200 or so smuggling tunnels that bring weapons (particularly long range rockets for attacks on Israeli civilians) into Gaza. Israel wants Israeli or American sensors and technicians prowling the Egyptian border to detect all the tunnels, and for Egyptian border guards to destroy them. Hamas opposes this (as do many Egyptian officials, especially the ones who benefit from the bribes of the tunnel operators). Negotiations continue.

Ultimately, Hamas found that hiding their senior leadership in hospitals or orphanages offered the best protection from Israeli attack. Weapons and key items of military equipment could also be stored there. Hamas apparently exercised some restraint, in to what degree they took over these institutions for military purposes. Someone in Hamas began doing the math, and realized that, at a certain point, a hospital full of weapons and Hamas personnel stopped being a hospital to Israeli commanders, and became a prime target.

Israel believes that Hamas had about 3,000 rockets in late December, and that during the 22 day campaign, about 700 of those rockets were fired in the general direction of Israel, while Israeli air (mostly) and ground forces destroyed another 1,300. That leaves Hamas with about 1,000 rockets, and dozens of functioning smuggling tunnels to Egypt through which components for replacement rockets can be moved.

Hamas claimed that Israeli bombs and troops did $1.9 billion worth of damage. It was probably closer to a few hundred million dollars. There were only about a thousand smart bombs used, and many of these were small ones (like the new U.S. 250 pound SDB, which Israel recently received). Hamas claimed that 5,000 homes were destroyed (and 20,000 damaged), along with 16 government buildings and 20 mosques. There are about 147,000 buildings in Gaza. Israel may take another media shot at Hamas by releasing photos of what was actually destroyed, and let Hamas try to dance away from their lies. But that may not be necessary, as Hamas is already the growing target for ridicule in the Arab world. If Israel was trying to get Hamas exposed as a bunch of tyrants, genocidal liars and blowhards, they seem to have succeeded,

January 20, 2009: The last Israeli troops were leaving Gaza, and taking up positions along the Gaza border. Apparently Israeli forces are being prepared for a quick return to Gaza if Hamas and Egypt do not come through on the terms of the ceasefire (mainly the security on the Egyptian border.) Palestinians continue to fire rockets into southern Israel, and shoot at Israeli troops.

January 19, 2009: Hamas accepts the ceasefire, sort of, they way they usually do. That means rockets will still be fired at Israel, Hamas will still call for the destruction of Israel, and peace will depend on how effectively smuggling into Gaza can be controlled. Israel has made it clear that, whenever it believes Hamas is becoming too dangerous, it will send bombers and troops in again.

January 18, 2009: The initial response to the Israeli ceasefire was the launching of eight rockets into Israel. These were fired from residential neighborhoods in or around Gaza City. Sometimes the Israelis caught the launch on one of their UAV vids. Many of these videos have quickly shown up on the Internet. While intended to expose Hamas culpability in the deaths of Palestinian civilians, the vids have also been a major blow to Hamas morale. Israeli use of UAVs has been more intense than in any previous conflict. The Israelis have also developed techniques to get information seen from the air, to the appropriate troops (air force, artillery, nearby infantry, Information War) quickly.

January 17, 2009: Negotiations with Hamas over a ceasefire continued, and about two dozen rockets were fired into Israel. In an effort to break the deadlock, Israel declared a unilateral ceasefire, to begin at 2 AM on the 18th. Israeli troops would stay in Gaza until Hamas agreed to a ceasefire.

Meanwhile, Israeli troops moved into Gaza city, easily destroying any Hamas fighters who tried to interfere. Hamas fighters were not prepared for combat, and this is a serious problem for Hamas. It was not just lack of training (some Iranian trained Hamas fighters also got killed quickly), but a lack of combat leadership. Higher Hamas commanders had worked up elaborate defense plans, but there was not lower ranking (lieutenants, captains and sergeants) to carry it out. Hamas is largely based on spectacle, theater and putting on a show. That doesn't work on the battlefield, at least not as well as the Israeli approach (good leadership and lots of training).

Israeli troops used new training techniques (and lots of practices) to keep their losses low. While about 400 Hamas fighters were killed trying to oppose the Israeli advance, only nine Israeli troops died (and this includes four killed by friendly fire).

January 14, 2009: Hamas has agreed to a truce, that would halt rocket and mortar attacks into Israel, and allow goods to enter Gaza. Hamas is fighting Israeli demands that strict security be established to keep weapons (especially long range weapons) out of Gaza.


http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/isra.../20090121.aspx

[Fall]

You are an antiSemite. But the reason is not because you criticize the IDF, but because of your total ignorance about the conflict. You are quick to voice your worthless opinion, but because all of your views are totally void of any knowledge of the history of the conflict of Arab against Jew, your ignorance exposes your antiSemitism.

1) I think we both agree arguing with each other is a waste of each others time. I did'nt register here to argue with someone who instead of adressing the questions i type insults my motives, my personality, and knowledge.
2) Lack of knowledge, and having a historical prefrence that does not line up with your heavily biased view does not make me a anti-semite.
3)The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites.
-I am a Semite, and pro-semite whether you want to believe me or not.
5) Feel free to have the last comment on your topic where you choose to laugh at misery, but i'm done adressing you. You'd rather make personal attacks, rather then discuss topics on a forum.

[CanDo]

No, and i have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything on this forum, or anywhere else rather. Try to discredit me as much as you want, my comments have been valid.

I am repeating this post to you proving your dishonesty and antiSemitism. You ignored it before because you either don't have the ability to respond as a rational adult, or because you have a dishonest agenda and are not interested in the truth, or because you are just plain dumb!

You said: "Would you have me cry for the Israelis, who chose the brutal, savage Palestinian killers, as their leaders? See what i did there? Thats pretty much how to some up this conflict from both sides."

I realize that you were trying to turn my words back at me, but you did so by being sleazy and dishonest.

You portray the IDF as brutal, savage killers, equating them to the terrorists who specifically and intentionally target civilians. And then you said that your comparison sums up the conflict for both sides, once again equating Israel's efforts for self defense as the same as the Palestinian intentionally murdering Israel's Jews, for over 60 years.

Then you have the dishonest gall to say that you have not accused the Jews of Israel of anything?! You outright lie, and then attempt to retract the very words that anyone can read? What do you think, that everyone is blind?

Idiot!