Missile defence system

[friendofisrael]

About a year ago I read about a proposed missile defence system to be used to protect Israeli towns from Hamas and friends. Obviously this hasn't been implimented yet! Is this still in the pipeline? Or has it been shelved?

Can anyone point me to a source of information on this subject? Do we know is it aimed at the smaller rockets fired from gaza, Lebanon etc, or is there such a thing that could stop missiles from further afield (Iran)?

Thanks

[andak01]

I'm 100% for it and anything else that can reduce or ultimately elliminate Israeli civilian casualties. That includes shelters, early warning devices, etc.

[orwellsghost]

There are several. The 'Iron Dome' system which I think is still going ahead;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

Not sure how successful it will be though.

There are also laser-based ones such as Nautilius;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_High_Energy_Laser

I think Israel has ruled this one out although it seems to be cheaper and more effective than Iron Dome although there seems to be a lot of disagreement on which system is better.

Some youtube footage of the laser system;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU

[yonatan]

Iron Dome is on track for deployment in the 1st quarter of 2010. It's sister system, David's Sling will be a little more than a year behind in deployment.

Testing has already begun for the Tamir interceptor used by Iron Dome. The Tamir missile is expected to come in at $35,000 each, with each Iron Dome battery expected to consist of a EL/M-2084 fire control radar, and three missile launchers, each equipped with 20 missiles. Iron Dome is expected to have a 70-km (40-nm) range, and is intended to specifically address the Qassam rockets used by Hamas.

David's Sling will be using the slightly larger Stunner missile, and will have a 300-km (160-nm) range - putting it in a similar class as the US-developed Patriot PAC-3 interceptor, although it is expected to be less expensive. David's Sling is being optimized to intercept Katyusha rockets such as those used by Hezbollah, and more recently by Hamas.

Taken together, Iron Dome and David's Sling are expected to provide a layered defense to the rockets and missiles used by Hamas and Hezbollah.

As for laser weaponry, this option was repeatedly reviewed, re-reviewed, and re-rejected. It simply doesn't add up from a cost-benefit standpoint, nor in terms of its readiness and reliability as a deployable system.


On-Line References:
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/sy...0318_2_n.shtml
http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSL24435989
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/967354.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
http://forest-ht.media-line.co.il/Im...sified-ENG.wmv
http://forest-ht.media-line.co.il/Im...sified-ENG.wmv

[KiwiWriter]

As for laser weaponry, this option was repeatedly reviewed, re-reviewed, and re-rejected. It simply doesn't add up from a cost-benefit standpoint, nor in terms of its readiness and reliability as a deployable system.

How did the laser not stand up cost-benefit wise? Sure development is certainly a lot more expensive, but unlike a missile system when it is deployed you won't be shelling out nearly fifty grand or so every time you pull the trigger.

[yonatan]

The acquisition cost of each Skyguard system, as proposed by Northrop Grumman, would be $150-200 million. That doesn't include research and development expenses, nor does it cover the cost of the chemicals used to power the laser. Each battery would cover half a football field, between the various targeting radars, and the the supply trucks for the chemical fuel. A minimum of five such batteries would have been needed on the border with Lebanon, with a similar number deployed near Gaza.[1]

You could pay for the entire Iron Dome R&D effort for less than the cost of two Skyguard batteries. That's assuming of course that the technical hurdles to making Skyguard into a functional weapons system can be overcome.

You have to remember that both the US and Israeli military participated in testing Northrop Grumman's THEL laser system - and both decided to shelve the project back in 2004. However "sexy" the idea of a laser weapon system might be in the movies, in the real world it has simply not proven itself to be a practical pursuit. Countermeasures are relatively easy to implement. Something as simple as a metallic coating on the exterior of a rocket can require an order of magnitude increase in the energy output required to achieve a kill.

If laser weaponry was really a practical option, the US military (which loves that kind of high-tech gadgetry) would have deployed such a system years ago. There is still an ongoing R&D effort for solid state laser development in Israel - as a longer-term alternative. For the time being, however, the technology just isn't there - and the costs of achieving even a rudimentary capability are well beyond Israel's means.


References:
[1]Joseph C. Anselmo, "Laser Defense," Aviation Week & Space Technology, 165 (Aug 7, 2006), p. 30.

[orwellsghost]

I suppose the other point to make is that although any system has a somewhat large expense, if say, Iron Dome is successful and its hit rate is high (I think it will only be shooting down those rockets that are at risk of hitting populated areas rather than open fields where the majority of rockets fall) then this might cause Hamas to cease shooting rockets since they are obsolete if they get shot down every time.

Perhaps the Israeli government should bill Hamas every time one of their rockets is intercepted?

[Mediocrates]

They don't have to work at $35,000 per shoot down. A thousand mortars and rockets is $35 million dollars.

[bararallu]

How did the laser not stand up cost-benefit wise? Sure development is certainly a lot more expensive, but unlike a missile system when it is deployed you won't be shelling out nearly fifty grand or so every time you pull the trigger.

There are other issues with it, first of all the fuel source... it's most probably going to be a chemical based laser. The chemical housing if breeched would be a disaster 100x that of a katusha landing anywhere else.

Maybe combining it with a remote Nuclear powered turbine would work a lot better.

[bararallu]

I suppose the other point to make is that although any system has a somewhat large expense, if say, Iron Dome is successful and its hit rate is high (I think it will only be shooting down those rockets that are at risk of hitting populated areas rather than open fields where the majority of rockets fall) then this might cause Hamas to cease shooting rockets since they are obsolete if they get shot down every time. ...

Or they upgrade the missles, how long do you think it will take for the Russians and then the Chinese to build simple counter measures? Lest we forget, the goal of the missles is terrorism, not actually hitting precise military targets- so having it randomly bob and weave as it comes down will probably counter much of the counter measures.

I'm all for countermeasures but the sure way to defeat this sort of terrorism is to smash their forces, as it has been since the beginning of time.

[Mediocrates]

You need need a high tech missile to overcome it. All you need is lots of objects to shoot at. Overwhelm it.

[codedvirus]

David's Sling Missile Defense
http://www.raytheon.com/media/ausa07...ts/stunner.pdf

[KiwiWriter]

There are other issues with it, first of all the fuel source... it's most probably going to be a chemical based laser. The chemical housing if breeched would be a disaster 100x that of a katusha landing anywhere else.

Maybe combining it with a remote Nuclear powered turbine would work a lot better.

What sort of chemical are used? Sorry not too up on the Technical aspects.

[bararallu]

What sort of chemical are used? Sorry not too up on the Technical aspects.

There are two weaponized technologies, Chemical powered lasers and the smaller solid state and derivative lasers (there are other technologies (gas etc) and combinations of techniques I believe but these are the two military applications). The chemical veriety is much much more powerful these days. 10+ megawatt lasers is where it starts getting interesting BTW. There is no large enough, or perhaps inexpensive enough, [super]capacitor to power megawatt powered solid state laser. Or so I've read. When they become appropriately powered they will go into fighter jets etc, as countermeasure devices first.

[yonatan]

What sort of chemical are used? Sorry not too up on the Technical aspects.

The US and Israel cooperated in trials of the THEL (Tactical High-Energy Laser) system several years ago. It was also known at that time as the Nautilus laser. Developed by Northrop Grumman, a mobile version labeled MTHEL was later proposed, and still later was re-proposed under the name of Skyguard.

This system was built around chemical laser technology, using deuterium fluoride to produce the infrared laser beam. The reaction system resembles a rocket's combustion chamber, burning ethylene in combination with nitrogen trifluoride to produce a high energy plasma. This rocket exhaust is then mixed with deuterium gas. It is the reaction between the deuterium and the high energy flourine atoms that produce the infrared laser.

Both the US Army and the Israeli military abandoned this approach in 2004, as unsuitable for a practical, military application. A variety of hurdles - including the system's size, development cost, environmental hazards, and the relative ease with which it could be defeated with countermeasures - led to its abandonment.

There are still ongoing programs to develop solid state laser technology, to the point where it may have weapons potential. The High Energy Liquid Laser Area Defense System (HELLADS) program, funded by the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is the most well known example of this effort, and aims to have a demonstrator system available for evaluation in 2012. Israel is also reported to have an ongoing research effort in this area. The enthusiasm that had once existed for chemical laser systems a decade ago, however, has largely evaporated.