U.K. soldiers killed in Northern Ireland ambush

[ForceRecon79]

U.K. soldiers killed in Northern Ireland ambush
Politicians blame Irish Republican Army dissidents for 2 deaths, 4 injuries

The Associated Press
updated 11:05 p.m. MT, Sat., March. 7, 2009

BELFAST, Northern Ireland - Two British soldiers were shot to death and four other people were wounded in a drive-by ambush Saturday night that politicians blamed on Irish Republican Army dissidents.

Witnesses said the gunmen struck at the main gate of the Massereene army barracks in Antrim west of Belfast as a group of soldiers and civilian army staff were collecting pizzas from a deliveryman. Gunmen who apparently had been following the deliveryman raked the army personnel with assault-rifle fire, then sped off.

The shooting — the worst in more than a decade in Northern Ireland — appeared designed to undermine Northern Ireland's Catholic-Protestant administration and the wider peace process.

Politicians from both the British Protestant majority and Irish Catholic minority blamed Irish Republican Army dissidents, although none of the IRA splinter groups claimed responsibility.

Both sides vowed that the attack would not undermine their 22-month-old coalition, the central accomplishment of a 1998 peace accord for this long-divided British territory following three decades of bloodshed.

"We will not be diverted from the direction which Northern Ireland has taken," said First Minister Peter Robinson, Protestant leader of the coalition, who canceled his planned departure Sunday for a 10-day trip to the United States. He called the attack "a futile act by those who command no public support and have no prospect of success in their campaign."

'Senseless violence'
In London, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown vowed to "do everything we can to ensure those responsible are brought to justice." He said IRA dissidents were aiming "to ignore the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the people of Northern Ireland and attempt to derail the peace process."

The Irish government in Dublin said virtually nobody in either part of Ireland wanted to rekindle a conflict that left more than 3,700 dead.

"We had all hoped that senseless violence was a thing of the past," said Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen. "Violence has been utterly rejected by the people of this island, both north and south. A tiny group of evil people cannot, and will not, undermine the will of the people of Ireland to live in peace together. "

The Police Service of Northern Ireland said the two fatal victims were soldiers, while those wounded were two soldiers and two civilian army employees. Aided by floodlights, forensic officers in surgical-style masks and white boiler suits combed the scene of the shooting for bullet casings and any other possible evidence.

The Massereene barracks is the headquarters for the Northern Ireland regiment of the army's Corps of Royal Engineers. The regiment provides technical assistance to other army units, including communications and construction expertise.


IRA dissidents opposed to the IRA's 1997 cease-fire and the wider peace process have been repeatedly trying to kill British security personnel since November 2007, wounding several police officers in a range of gun, bomb and rocket attacks.

But this was the first successful attack on a British military base in more than a decade. More than 4,000 British troops continue to be housed in 10 bases in Northern Ireland, but since July 2007 they have been restricted from playing any role in the province's security and are rarely seen in uniform in public.

'It's very scary'
The last fatal attack by IRA dissidents occurred in 2002, when a Protestant construction worker was killed by a booby-trapped lunch box.

The last Northern Ireland killing of a soldier happened in February 1997, when an IRA sniper killed a soldier as he chatted to a motorist at a vehicle checkpoint. The outlawed IRA called a cease-fire five months later.

Civilians in houses nearby the Massereene base entrance said they heard two long bursts of gunfire.

Kylie McLaughlin, who lives near the scene, said she heard "constant fire like a machine gun."

"It was very scary. We were not sure what was happening. We just can't believe it has happened here," she told the BBC in Belfast.

The attack came a day after Northern Ireland's police commander, Hugh Orde, confirmed that an elite army unit that specializes in electronic eavesdropping and surveillance had begun to help the police monitor IRA dissidents because of growing fears of an attack. Catholic leaders had criticized the move because it appeared to represent a step away from the army's 2007 withdrawal from active duty in Northern Ireland.

The IRA killed nearly 1,800 people from 1970 to 1997 in an effort to force Northern Ireland out of the United Kingdom and into the Republic of Ireland. The IRA disarmed and renounced violence in 2005, but splinter groups using a wide range of labels have tried to continue the campaign.

[ForceRecon79]

Great, just what we need this bunch of crap starting up again. Killing British soldiers who are just doing their jobs has not united Ireland for 30 years and it won't do it now...cut this crap out. The last time these dissidents got out of hand, the actual IRA killed several of them...maybe it's time for another round of that.

[friendofisrael]

Terrible news.

I just hope that all possible resourses will be used to track down these animals. Id love to see these terrorists caught with weapons and shot dead. I fear however, that that politics will hamper and constrain the police and army.

Only a couple of days ago news broke that the PSNI had called in a few British army specialists to help with survelliance on dissident republicans. The news was greeted with anger and criticism by the usual suspects in Sinn Fein and the liberal media.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930308.stm

Gerry Adams has said the chief constable risks losing the support of the vast majority of republicans.

"He has the popular support of the vast majority of republicans, provided he does the right thing," the Sinn Fein president said.

Mr Adams said that to "open up the old agenda" was "not the way forward".

His comments come after Sir Hugh Orde requested the Special Reconnaissance Regiment's help to gather intelligence on dissident republicans.

The chief constable said he had asked for some extra support to deal with the threats posed by a small number of what he described as "extremely dangerous people".

I think after this latest tragedy the PSNI should be asking for more help from special forces. The numbers of M15 and the recon SRR guys should be increased. SAS should be re-deployed (if the intelligence supports it) and the public should not be told! Do we deserve any less protection than police or army based in England?

I hope we see a strong condemnation from the nationalist/republican community. I believe they are also appalled, but they need to shout about it, and most importantly support the police by providing information.

[friendofisrael]

Originally posted by ForceRecon79

The last time these dissidents got out of hand, the actual IRA killed several of them...maybe it's time for another round of that.

With respect I strongly disagree. It's time for the lawful forces of the state to take these guys out. But it sadly won't happen for fear of a wider republican backlash.

Also how do we know when the 'actual' IRA ends and the 'dissident' IRA begins?

[Yala]

somebody better call the peacemaker Blair!

[friendofisrael]

Sadly a police officer was shot dead tonight in craigavon, county Armagh. No further details yet, but you can be sure it's republicans.

Let's take the gloves off and wipe these people out. I don't think Israel or the US would hesitate in sending in the special forces. Why should we?

[Yala]

Wow, this is madness. I am really shocked.

[Kenneth]

Why did they target soldiers and the PSNI? Why not target the UVF? They're not as likely to show restraint.

[friendofisrael]

They view the UVF and all loyalists as 'misguided' Irishmen. The army, police and anyone helping them are 'agents of the British occupation, and hence are 'legitimate' targets.

These groups have hardly ever targeted each other (unfortunately). They seem to have unwritten rules on that. It has even been proven in the past that loyalist and republican terrorists worked with each other in criminality, drugs etc.

Any such attack by the dissidents on loyalists would definately result in retaliation. But the UVF/UDA etc are that thick and useless they'll just go for 'anyone in a Celtic top' rather than trying to take out R/CIRA men.

[Sharona]

Gaza has set a fairly dangerous precedent.

The outcry against Israel illustrates that it is now indefensible to defend your own people. Even if they have been under attack for years.

The military term 'proportionality' will no longer be seen in its true light - the removal of military threats - but will depend on body count (which, if any numbskull touting this view ever stopped to think about it, is beyond ludicrous)

The government of the UK and all its think tanks / advisors, will come down squarely on the side of the terrorist and offer them 'community cohesion' platforms where they'll happily recruit more to the cause. Socially-minded 'experts' will assume their own platforms to outline the 'marginalisation' of those who commit such acts and more money will be directed towards redressing their grievances.

Then George 'the cat' Galloway will trumpet their cause.

All of which does nothing to serve justice, nor bring back the innocents who die.

[maven]

I saw a BBC interview with a Catholic 'yoof' on a NI council estate. They asked him if he was sad about the death of the two soldiers and he said he had no sympathy for them; "They're occupying my country" he said, with undertones of Iraq and Gaza.
The Catholic population in NI supports the Palestinians while the Protestants support Israel.
People like Galloway and the so-called anti-war movement along with 'human rights' workers have gone a long way to make terrorism seem heroic and just to a young generation around the world.

The method of launching mortars from metal boxes used from a lorry in London against 10 Downing Street is said to have been transferred by Irish terrorists to the Saddam Fedayeen and used to fire mortars from donkey carts into the Green Zone in Iraq.

[maven]

Why did they target soldiers and the PSNI? Why not target the UVF? They're not as likely to show restraint.

UVF and other Protestant paramilitaries have all but disbanded and no longer wish to fight. But the Catholic Republicans bolstered by their support for Hamas and groups like the Saddam Fedayeen and Al quaida in Iraq are up for a fiight to "End the occupation by the 'Brothish'." One of the 'Viva Palestina' convoy was from Northern Irealand.

[CLL1709]

Dear God what is happening in the UK? !! My niece's husband is in the RAF (she is USAF) and somehow they have managed to be stationed together again, this time in Europe. It is of great concern to me that they may one day end up in England and I certainly do not want this to occur with all the Islamafication of your country. The demonstration at the parade was despicable. When ever are the Brits going to begin taking back their country from these monsters?

[Sharona]

Is the USAF the air force or general armed forces? The reason I ask is that I worked for the US armed forces overseas in Munich.

Anyway, that aside - the situation in the UK has been a sort of slow, creeping animal. You hear these mad clerics on TV or read about them in the paper but they seem so bizarre that you don't think anyone is listening to them. That's because you're assuming everyone in the world has the full set of Western logic, values and mindsets.

Then you see the odd protest - like the Danish cartoon march - and read placards carried by young men with their desert scarf covered faces and which use words like 'Behead x '(fill in the blank) and 'Europe - Bin Laden is coming' and 'Freedom go to Hell' and you realise that actually, quite a few people have listened to what appear to be mad men. Come Gaza and the crowds are even bigger, their chants more evil and even the police are running from them.

Then you have incidents where it's patently obvious that the government are influenced in favour of these lunatics - such as the threat by Lord Ahmed to rouse 10,000 muslims if Wilders was allowed in the country. I've only just discovered that this was the number said to have been engaged by Muhammed to return to Mecca and conquer it.

Gaza, has, in a way, been a tipping point. The media bias in favour of an Islamic terror organisation and the way in which even political programs shut people up makes you realise that there is much, much more to this phenomenon. And it is a phenomenon because we didn't appear to have it a decade ago. Research a little and you realise just how much has been kept from the public.

Because political correctness has been so rife, people have felt like racists for uttering what are truths - and this is the case for many intolerable things that we are tolerating, like youth crime. We have never had real violence in the UK and our normal police force is still unarmed. Years ago, a fist-fight would make the news, now we've got knife and gun crime. It's arisen because we're being told to tolerate the intolerable; everyone who is behaving in a less-than-civilised fashion is apparently a victim of something. Like any of us get through life without any grief! This transposition of victimhood on what is plain bad behaviour has created a UK I don't recognise.


That said, I think there is a twitch in the worm now. It may not have turned completely, but it's not lying on the path waiting to be trodden on. Gaza has woken up quite a few people who were previously asleep. Of course, many media outlets present pure venom against Israel as the views of the everyday person, but from what I hear around me, that isn't so.

The things to be on your guard for are the small things that you moan about from time to time, but which otherwise aren't having a huge effect right now - like political correctness, crazy health and safety laws, multi-culturalism which has only created a sort of country of tribes rather than an integrated, cohesive community - that type of thing. It's where you begin to realise that the saying 'the trouble with common sense is that it ain't so common!" is very true. You want to point out the foolishness of higher or local government, but realise that you stand a chance of being scorned or villified for doing so.

Like I said, this is a slow, creeping animal that comes in so many guises.

[maven]

Is the USAF the air force or general armed forces? The reason I ask is that I worked for the US armed forces overseas in Munich.

Anyway, that aside - the situation in the UK has been a sort of slow, creeping animal. You hear these mad clerics on TV or read about them in the paper but they seem so bizarre that you don't think anyone is listening to them. That's because you're assuming everyone in the world has the full set of Western logic, values and mindsets.

Then you see the odd protest - like the Danish cartoon march - and read placards carried by young men with their desert scarf covered faces and which use words like 'Behead x '(fill in the blank) and 'Europe - Bin Laden is coming' and 'Freedom go to Hell' and you realise that actually, quite a few people have listened to what appear to be mad men. Come Gaza and the crowds are even bigger, their chants more evil and even the police are running from them.

Then you have incidents where it's patently obvious that the government are influenced in favour of these lunatics - such as the threat by Lord Ahmed to rouse 10,000 muslims if Wilders was allowed in the country. I've only just discovered that this was the number said to have been engaged by Muhammed to return to Mecca and conquer it.

Gaza, has, in a way, been a tipping point. The media bias in favour of an Islamic terror organisation and the way in which even political programs shut people up makes you realise that there is much, much more to this phenomenon. And it is a phenomenon because we didn't appear to have it a decade ago. Research a little and you realise just how much has been kept from the public.

Because political correctness has been so rife, people have felt like racists for uttering what are truths - and this is the case for many intolerable things that we are tolerating, like youth crime. We have never had real violence in the UK and our normal police force is still unarmed. Years ago, a fist-fight would make the news, now we've got knife and gun crime. It's arisen because we're being told to tolerate the intolerable; everyone who is behaving in a less-than-civilised fashion is apparently a victim of something. Like any of us get through life without any grief! This transposition of victimhood on what is plain bad behaviour has created a UK I don't recognise.


That said, I think there is a twitch in the worm now. It may not have turned completely, but it's not lying on the path waiting to be trodden on. Gaza has woken up quite a few people who were previously asleep. Of course, many media outlets present pure venom against Israel as the views of the everyday person, but from what I hear around me, that isn't so.

The things to be on your guard for are the small things that you moan about from time to time, but which otherwise aren't having a huge effect right now - like political correctness, crazy health and safety laws, multi-culturalism which has only created a sort of country of tribes rather than an integrated, cohesive community - that type of thing. It's where you begin to realise that the saying 'the trouble with common sense is that it ain't so common!" is very true. You want to point out the foolishness of higher or local government, but realise that you stand a chance of being scorned or villified for doing so.

Like I said, this is a slow, creeping animal that comes in so many guises.

First class analysis Sharona, congratulations.

As to CLL1709's worry about US Forces in the UK, firstly no-one ever sees them because they are hidden in bases and secondly they will probably be kicked out soon when Gordon needs to get Rory Bremner on his side to generate more cheap votes.

As he did by awarding the ginormous British Left and liberal section of society a defeat in Iraq by the Al Sadr militia and a humiliating return of troops who had been beaten into hiding in Basra airport by lack of British government and military support from cowardly British generals and a cowardly defence dept and a wish to please an anti-war electorate.