Originally Posted by Mediocrates
That, also, is downright and outright treason.
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That, also, is downright and outright treason.
Where did anyone say America financed Hitler? America was certainly complacent, and there are specific instances where Americans either aided, or turned a blind eye. You're not challenging that are you?
The chances that the Germans could reprogram the machine are slim to none. If you read the history of computing, and what went on at places like Bell Labs, it wasn't until much after the war that engineers managed to get these things to do anything, and those engineers were mad men who would spend 20 hour days wrapped in punch card strips just to do some trivial task like get it to make a beep. Germany likely pushed the limits of the machines and found a task to make them worthwhile. We're talking about an invention from the turn of the Century. This was probably the most productivity such a machine ever found. You're even questioning if it was necessary to have someone operate the machines which just speaks to a refusal to believe this happened more than anything.
Okay.... America created Hitler and was responsible for the genocide of the Jews. It was not the Germans, Hitler, Himmler, or Eichman but Bush and IBM..... yes, I heard all of this before.
The same IBM machines were operated by Soviets and the Britts. What did the Soviets count with these machines? Number of people in the Gulags?
As a purely legal matter IBM through a number of paper intermediaries knowingly operated with the 3rd Reich during at least some of the time there was declared state of war with them.
The operated within the legally allowed rules. Nothing different from the British or the Soviets who supplied a lot more strategic materials to the Germans.
The chances that the Germans could reprogram the machine are slim to none.
Germany was one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world prior and during WWII. If you think they could not figure out how to work the IBM machine they were sold.....
You're even questioning if it was necessary to have someone operate the machines which just speaks to a refusal to believe this happened more than anything.
? What is that supposed to mean?
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
Posted by Shulamith:
You are either stupid, or you are trying to act stupid. You know every well the ramifications for a respected company in the USA having willingly let it's product be used with their blessing for the express purpose of promoting and exacerbating the genocide of the Jewish People.
In Kiev the Nazis got hold of the Jews without any IBMs. They simply declared on street signs that all Jews are to report to a certain place called Babi Yar for the purpose of relocation. The rest we know.... there was absolutely no need to look for 1/100th of a Jew. People simply followed orders.
Same was done in Warsaw, Byalostok, Lvov, Vilnius (Vilna), Minsk, Lublin, Krakow and in fact any other place where Jews lived. Tragically it was that easy.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
Egad, you really DO believe that the Germans are the super-race that they think they are, don't you?
You think they invented everything and WERE capabable to doing just about everything, don't you?
They lost the war, remember, they wasn't that damn smart...no, they couldn't re-program the Hollerith machine and no, they couldn't have been as expeditious in their murder of the Jews without the punch card computations of the hollerith machine...this evil machine HELPED them in their efforts.....as though they needed the help, but help them, it did.
Read the book, or books....you just might learn something.
People who think they know it all, are in fact, the most ignorant of all people.
Posted by Shulamith:
Egad, you really DO believe that the Germans are the super-race that they think they are, don't you?
? What is that supposed to mean?
You think they invented everything and WERE capabable to doing just about everything, don't you?
Yes, it was a very powerful and very advanced nation. It took the entire world over 6 years and millions of lives to defeat Germany.
They lost the war, remember, they wasn't that damn smart...
Unfortunately the Germans were very tough and a very advanced enemy..... this was the tragedy of the thing..
no, they couldn't re-program the Hollerith machine
They could create world first jet planes and rockets, but could not figure out an out-dated punch card machinedon't make me laugh.
and no, they couldn't have been as expeditious in their murder of the Jews without the punch card computations of the hollerith machine...this evil machine HELPED them in their efforts.....as though they needed the help, but help them, it did.
Read the book, or books....you just might learn something.
I guess.
People who think they know it all, are in fact, the most ignorant of all people.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
In Germany, many people hid or were half-Jewish or some-thing. The Hollerith machine helped ferret out all the Jews in Germany who thought that they were protected because they had been assimilated in German society.
The Hollerith machine rendered no one able to hide their Jewishness from the Nazi's.
Not everyone ran to be deported to their deaths.....that's just not so.
Posted by Shulamith:
In Germany, many people hid or were half-Jewish or some-thing. The Hollerith machine helped ferret out all the Jews in Germany who thought that they were protected because they had been assimilated in German society. The Hollerith machine rendered no one able to hide their Jewishness from the Nazi's.
Was it a magic device of some kind or just a piece of equipment designed to keep track of things? In the US this type of equipment was used to collect and process census data. The Hollerith method itself, according to Wiki, was invented by a German immigrant for the 1890! American census. I am very sure the Germans knew how all this worked 40 years later.
Not everyone ran to be deported to their deaths.....that's just not so.
Unfortunately most simply followed orders. It was so sadistically simple.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
The Hollerith machine was the earliest form of what would become computers....if fed census data and with the use of punch cards, it could automatically find each and every Jew in Germany going back generations. This is how the Nazis were able to pick out each and every Jewish citizen in Germany, going back for generations, even if one's great-grandmother on your father's side was Jewish, you couldn't hide from being hunted down and sent to a death camp.
The Germans were very, very careful record keepers and in so, used the Hollerith machine to track down every Jew, to the inth degree, and no matter how distant one had a Jewish relative, in their zeal and delight in their efforts to destroy every particle of Jewishness in a given person, had they had the best of modern machinery available with the help of the greatest minds at IBM, at their service to help them track down every Jew, with the "wonderful" Hollerith machine. It also kept records and helped expedite trains to their destinations to camps and they helped process the loads of persons to be murdered at the camps.
Mil. Come on. Didn't I just assure you that this wasn't the argument being made? Why are you again going back to this straw man?
Again, you're missing the point. It's not the machine, it's not the sale of the machine, it's the practical use, the knowledge of their usage, and the time in which these machines were put to use.
Look into basic history of computer technology and what was achieved by that time. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of saying the Mayans had space ships. Yes, the Germans trained engineers to run these machines, and I realize that's hard to fathom being that we grew up in the generation of Texas Instrument pocket calculators, but these tabulation machines were both complex, and antiquated for their task. IBM would have to train, and modify the machines depending on the purpose. Otherwise, why didn't Germany just build the machines themselves? Why didn't they develop their own machines? Clearly, they needed these machines, produced overseas in America. Think about that.
That I think you're being stubborn and losing all sense of logic.
Mil, you work for IBM?
Posted by redcake:
Mil. Come on. Didn't I just assure you that this wasn't the argument being made? Why are you again going back to this straw man?
I hate conspiracy theories.
Again, you're missing the point. It's not the machine, it's not the sale of the machine, it's the practical use, the knowledge of their usage, and the time in which these machines were put to use.
Hiram Maxim knowingly sold his machine gun to all warring nations. The Germans used this particular invention with lots of success to kill Jews and many other peoples.
Yes, IBM sold this machine to Germany to count people.
Look into basic history of computer technology and what was achieved by that time. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of saying the Mayans had space ships.
? Mayans did not have space ships but Germans had remote controlled missiles, Panther tanks, infrared night-vision equipment, jet planes, and much other very-very advanced stuff.
Yes, the Germans trained engineers to run these machines, and I realize that's hard to fathom being that we grew up in the generation of Texas Instrument pocket calculators, but these tabulation machines were both complex, and antiquated for their task. IBM would have to train, and modify the machines depending on the purpose. Otherwise, why didn't Germany just build the machines themselves?
Why build something when you can buy it. I am more then sure if the Germans would have wanted to build a Hollerith machine they would.
Why didn't they develop their own machines? Clearly, they needed these machines, produced overseas in America. Think about that.
I don't understand why they specifically "needed" these machines to be produced overseas? America made them and Germany bought them. As did England, Soviet Russia, and probably a number of other countries.
What did England use these machines for? Count the number of colonial subjects?
You're even questioning if it was necessary to have someone operate the machines which just speaks to a refusal to believe this happened more than anything.
The IBM machine was used to keep track of Jews and other camp inmates. That's fine. If it would not be an IBM machine there would have been something else - like another machine. That it happened to be IBM makes absolutely no difference as far as proving complacency. The Holocaust was was not created around IBM neither was IBM created for the Holocaust. From my understanding complacency would be if this machine would be knowingly sold to specifically count Jews for extermination... which it clearly was not.
In any case this was just a detail of the Holocaust.
That I think you're being stubborn and losing all sense of logic.
Look America at the time made lots of specialized equipment which it sold to anybody who wanted it. From cars, to trucks, to planes, to electronics and to punch card machines of every sort and kind. There were thousands of American engineers working on Stalin's wander projects built by millions of Gulag inmates, Americans were looking for oil in Saudi Arabia, Americans were flying across the world in their wonder planes, Americans were exporting their Buicks and Fords to whatever the place....
IBM was not so far out from the rest. Ethical and responsible corporate behavior was not the thing of the day especially when dealing between two largest world economies. At the time most countries engaged in dubious behavior, including colonial powers like Great Britain and France.... the standards were different as was the understanding of what companies should and should not do. Only after WWII was corporate responsibility openly questioned by the world after such close complacency of German business with Hitler. IBM is a good example that modern Corporations must have a code of responsible ethics and many self-respecting corporations do.
I really recommend you read book called about what real complacency was about (it makes me puke whenever I see some known German label):
Less Than Slaves : Jewish Forced Labor and the Quest for Compensation (Hardcover) by Benjamin B. Ferencz.
In fact Germany was not a very popular market for American businesses. German economy was overly protectionist and Hitler had this thing for changing economic policies on a whim - including such fun stuff as currency manipulation, unreasonable tariffs, price enforcement and other..... Trade between Germany and the United States was not a booming affair and mostly amounted to the purchase of big ticket items mostly by Germany from the United States - like IBM punch card machines.
There is a book which recently came out called:
The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy (Paperback) by British historian Adam Tooze.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
Mil, you work for IBM?
No. I work for Motorola.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
Don't be ridiculous, the Germans were busy making instruments of war and total annhilation and destruction of Europe and rocket scientists were busy making rockets, not tabulating machines for tracking down Jews. It is that simple....it was expedient to use IBM's Hollerith machines.....stop being pig-headed.
IBM was an instrument of the destruction of the Jews; and this is proven beyond a doubt....take a hike to your local library and read about it. It is plenty exhaustive enough and has each and every item citated, sourced and indexed.
You will be unpleasantly amazed at the monies that IBM was able to make off of Germany in it's efforts to destroy European Jews.
Posted by Shulamith:
Don't be ridiculous, the Germans were busy making instruments of war and total annhilation and destruction of Europe and rocket scientists were busy making rockets, not tabulating machines for tracking down Jews. It is that simple....it was expedient to use IBM's Hollerith machines.....stop being pig-headed.
It would have been cool if it only were true.... Unfortunately it was not and the world paid millions of lives for it
IBM was an instrument of the destruction of the Jews; and this is proven beyond a doubt....take a hike to your local library and read about it. It is plenty exhaustive enough and has each and every item citated, sourced and indexed.
In Treblinka one of the gas chambers used a diesel engine of a Soviet KVII heavy tank.
You will be unpleasantly amazed at the monies that IBM was able to make off of Germany in it's efforts to destroy European Jews.
Okay - it was IBMs fault.
Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.
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