An ADMISSION by Arab Journalist that Palestinian Authority distorts truth in media

[danholo]

I think it's possible IDF soldiers do lotsa ****. It is not hard to belive, since when you are an IDF soldier who goes into an area with "no laws" its easy to become arrogant and act like a bully.
I also know that they do good things to help or just act according to their army moral and dont stoop to a bully level. Many of the soldiers are fathers and know their Jewish ethic to act well toward others.
We actually had a constructive discussion of this with ayesha.

So freethepeeps, could you tell us your story fully and not just make claims "I was there, I saw it". I would really like to hear what you have seen. You could also tell us when you were there and other major and minor details.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by danholo
I think it's possible IDF soldiers do lotsa ****. It is not hard to belive, since when you are an IDF soldier who goes into an area with "no laws" its easy to become arrogant and act like a bully.
I also know that they do good things to help or just act according to their army moral and dont stoop to a bully level. Many of the soldiers are fathers and know their Jewish ethic to act well toward others.
We actually had a constructive discussion of this with ayesha.

So freethepeeps, could you tell us your story fully and not just make claims "I was there, I saw it". I would really like to hear what you have seen. You could also tell us when you were there and other major and minor details.

Thankyou for that invitation danholo

I will build a website in the next few hours with the reports that I have written so far, and will print up the address once I have done so.

[elke]

And I absolutely disagree with your "transparent" society - the grilling I had at Ben Gurion airport, both coming in and going out, puts paid to that notion.

Funny, I didn't get any such grilling either of the times I've been there. Neither have my parents, who just came back from Israel 2 weeks ago. My mother did get a grilling from the US official coming back from Spain though: they couldn't believe she was really 62!

Maybe, the Israelis simply know who to grill?

[danholo]

Originally posted by freethepeeps


Thankyou for that invitation danholo

I will build a website in the next few hours with the reports that I have written so far, and will print up the address once I have done so.

No prob. It's just that as a pro-Israel person I really don't like to see Jewish bullies doing what you claim in the territories. It really hard to accept.
What really bugs me though, is that even if we don't mostly believe what you claim, we sure as hell don't accept the things these bullies do. They are "the garbage" of the IDF. I have seen pictures like this, but I also have seen very positive pictures where soldiers help Palestinian children or then they just do their job at patrolling, not doing harm to innocent people.
Palestinians on the other hand glorify their murderers and bullies and consider them their saviour, demonizing all Jews.
All these "militants" really do is carry out attacks to kill civilians. Very rarely do they attempt military targets.
Now since it is hard for terrorists to attack military targets, they pick on the defensless, but that does not justify anything. They should find peaceful and respectable means to defy occupation and kick Arafat the Terrorist out who is an outright liar. Then probably Israel and pro-Israel supporters world wide would accept what the Palestinians demand.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by danholo


No prob. It's just that as a pro-Israel person I really don't like to see Jewish bullies doing what you claim in the territories. It really hard to accept.
What really bugs me though, is that even if we don't mostly believe what you claim, we sure as hell don't accept the things these bullies do. They are "the garbage" of the IDF. I have seen pictures like this, but I also have seen very positive pictures where soldiers help Palestinian children or then they just do their job at patrolling, not doing harm to innocent people.
Palestinians on the other hand glorify their murderers and bullies and consider them their saviour, demonizing all Jews.
All these "militants" really do is carry out attacks to kill civilians. Very rarely do they attempt military targets.
Now since it is hard for terrorists to attack military targets, they pick on the defensless, but that does not justify anything. They should find peaceful and respectable means to defy occupation and kick Arafat the Terrorist out who is an outright liar. Then probably Israel and pro-Israel supporters world wide would accept what the Palestinians demand.

Do you have any suggestions as to "peaceful and respectable means to defy occupation" ? I have asked this question several times, and as yet have not received a workable response!

The problem with the usual means - eg demos, strikes etc are that they are dangerous and nigh on impossible with occupation and curfew.

And how exactly do you propose that they kick Arafat out? A one party state with a nasty, brutal security system is not going to look kindly upon any such attempt, is it? Furthermore, Arafat's support was definitely falling until this siege business, which has meant all sort of unlikely bodies coming out in support of him.

Here is my site, with incomplete notes

[danholo]

Originally posted by freethepeeps


Do you have any suggestions as to "peaceful and respectable means to defy occupation" ? I have asked this question several times, and as yet have not received a workable response!

I don't know, but not by blowing up people on a bus or eating pizza. This will get them nowhere.
There is a war going on. Israel won't surrender to terrorists and terrorists won't surrender to the IDF. I guess, the situation will continue until the other side has lost. This will take a long time.
On the other hand, Palestinians conditions were improving dramatically after Oslo and deteriorated to utter **** after the Intifadeh started. The Intifadeh has not helped one bit. It has only made the Palestinians conditions worse. If Arafat would've continued with negotiating peace and not start his little war, things would be better today and Mr. Sharon would not be PM and you wouldn't have to put up a site, with a one sided view of the situation. The site was ok though, but it lacked perspective from the other side.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by danholo


I don't know, but not by blowing up people on a bus or eating pizza. This will get them nowhere.

But it has got them somewhere, Israeli papers are reporting that people are leaving the "settlements" and that the rate of growth is slowing down. And I don't know how they can resist it in any other way either. I really wish that there was another way. At least in the Cold war days they would have been supplied with weaponry to enable them to fight it out on a more equal basis.

There is a war going on. Israel won't surrender to terrorists and terrorists won't surrender to the IDF. I guess, the situation will continue until the other side has lost. This will take a long time.

There can only be a war between nations. Your "terrorists" or my "freedom fighters" result out the fact that there is no possibility of an armed military response, because there is no sovereign nation for the Palestinians. And I don't see what you mean by "until the other side has lost" - I strongly believe that the harsher the IDF retaliation, the more militants will be created.And that is bad for everyone.

On the other hand, Palestinians conditions were improving dramatically after Oslo and deteriorated to utter **** after the Intifadeh started. The Intifadeh has not helped one bit. It has only made the Palestinians conditions worse.

There are many who dispute that conditions were improving - eg


If Arafat would've continued with negotiating peace and not start his little war, things would be better today and Mr. Sharon would not be PM and you wouldn't have to put up a site, with a one sided view of the situation. The site was ok though, but it lacked perspective from the other side.

The site is my journal of what I saw in Palestine. It does not reflect any view other than my own, and I guess that one of the things I am doing on a forum such as this, is desperately trying to understand the "other sides perspective". However, as someone born and raised in Apartheid South Africa, it alarms me that much of the content here is consistent with the argument of whites in apartheid society. They were convinced that they had a religous right to behave the way they did, and that was disproven when the Mutch Deformed Church (Dutch Reformed Church) apologised and labelled its teachings a heresy. So, I will be the first to admit that I am not unbiased. However, I try to learn and understand more, all the time.

[danholo]

Originally posted by freethepeeps


it alarms me that much of the content here is consistent with the argument of whites in apartheid society.

Which are?
The situation in Israel is very different from Apartheid South Africa.
White's had and still don't have any historical claim to that land but Jews do. Arabs adamantly rejected Jewish right to any land and this is how the whole situation began.
I don't know the history of South Africa at all though, but the Israeli occupation happened in legitimate circumstances. Israel had offered WB and Gaza back to the Arabs for recognition and peace towards Israel and this is why we are in this "everything is because of occupation" stuff.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by danholo


Which are?
The situation in Israel is very different from Apartheid South Africa.
White's had and still don't have any historical claim to that land but Jews do. Arabs adamantly rejected Jewish right to any land and this is how the whole situation began.
I don't know the history of South Africa at all though, but the Israeli occupation happened in legitimate circumstances. Israel had offered WB and Gaza back to the Arabs for recognition and peace towards Israel and this is why we are in this "everything is because of occupation" stuff.

My understanding is that the terms of the offer were unacceptable. They would have sentenced Palestine to an eternity of second rate status and subjugation to the Israeli State and economy. Did you look at the article I posted above?

[Mediocrates]

A) they sentenced themselves
B) no country, especially one backed to the tune of 10 billion dollars by other arab states is held is slavery by the economy of another
B1) How were their lived improving since Oslo? Well for one the family income for workers working inside the West Bank was marginally higher than that for families of workers who were day labor on the other side of the Green Line - according to FY2000 UN reports. Second the aggregate income of Palestinians generally were ~60% that of Israelis. Again according to FY2000 UN reports - 30% of Palestinians owned a TV, 65% a cell phone, 25% owned or had access to a car. Now the question you have to ask yourself is, is that the group of people for whom rioting and violence is an attractive option?

No it is not. Clearly what Arafat has accomplished is created his own destruction of civil order by getting the lower classes to commit to the intifada. They have effectively destroyed their own middle class for political purposes. And this more than anything else is why their economy is gone. Given the chance - according to a radio report on NPR I heard 5-6 weeks ago, 70% of the former Palestinian middle class, shop keepers etc. would leave and not come back.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
A) they sentenced themselves

How?

B) no country, especially one backed to the tune of 10 billion dollars by other arab states is held is slavery by the economy of another

Can you prove this? Sara Roy definitely disagrees with you!

B1) How were their lived improving since Oslo? Well for one the family income for workers working inside the West Bank was marginally higher than that for families of workers who were day labor on the other side of the Green Line - according to FY2000 UN reports. Second the aggregate income of Palestinians generally were ~60% that of Israelis. Again according to FY2000 UN reports - 30% of Palestinians owned a TV, 65% a cell phone, 25% owned or had access to a car. Now the question you have to ask yourself is, is that the group of people for whom rioting and violence is an attractive option?

No it is not. Clearly what Arafat has accomplished is created his own destruction of civil order by getting the lower classes to commit to the intifada. They have effectively destroyed their own middle class for political purposes. And this more than anything else is why their economy is gone. Given the chance - according to a radio report on NPR I heard 5-6 weeks ago, 70% of the former Palestinian middle class, shop keepers etc. would leave and not come back.

See Roy again. Also this article on Israel and Arafat

[Mediocrates]

Proof?

I can google it as easily as anyone. Of course what would you consider a primary source?

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Proof?

I can google it as easily as anyone. Of course what would you consider a primary source?

Erm - hows about an academic article, or a newspaper item from a reputable paper. And you'd be a better googler than me, I can't find it.

And it would be helpful if you elaborated on how "Palestinians sentenced themselves"

[Gilgamesh]

I been in this board for two monthes now, been lerning alot about the different kinds of anti semetics, racists and haters who condone mass killing of our brothers and sisters, spread lies and stupid libles boute Jews killing Christian / muslems "for the fun of it" / jewish ritual / european style evil ness (we europeans are not evil more then others... ).

"know your self and know thy enemy" is a powerful motto.

However, i keep wondering... why do we care about these phsycos "feelings" as if they have one, or what they think of it... what can be done with the knowalge of the minds of anti semetic evil creatures...

in a nut shell, all I'm saying is... why do we bother answering these guys? Who cares what an anti semetic racist thinks of Israel or its right to exist...

Israel will exists reagardless of what other thinks of it, and Jews keep on fighting to defend their lands, honor and indeed lives, with arms and with clear intention and best of moral to kill those who try to kill our loved ones...

When ever the question "why arab children get killed?" best is to refer the creature to past threads or other forums. One who feels compaled to tackle such creature, might find this fact some what amusing: couple of IDF battalions are made up from Druz Arabs and Christian Arabs and Beduwin muslems. The one and only thing that binds them all the the anciant and terrible hate they have toward Islamist Arabs. These battalions are considered to be inferrior to any Jewish battalion. poor discipline, trigger happy and blood lust. Many of these soldiers get to spend time in army pen, when ever a millitary court of law makes it stick. Arabs killing Arabs is old news in the region. pity they give us Jews bad name... millitary court is not a replacment for poor dicipline. Best if these battalion were disbanded... But then again, in a democrathic pluralistic socity you must not prevent a Druz from millitary sevice, if he wishes too... just because he is a blood lusting arab from an inferior culture... Mybe we should consider hiring Europeans... but then again... its too crule... no one can best the europeans in killing civilians...

[I am David]

Yeah lol, they really are good at that!