How can you deny SLAs?

[bararallu]

Golem,

I think OB feels that we Israelis (or at least the state of Israel) should act more responsibly vis-a-vis our once erstwhile ally in southern Lebanon. While I agree in principle, I personally think she overstates her case, especially mixing up realpolitik politics with humanity (taking care of friends etc), and possibly ethnic affiliation.

OB,

The Wiki is based on what data? How many SLA soldiers do you know? You are aware that most of the villages down there were Shia in the last 20 years. The Christians packed up and left. The Palestinians raided the Christians and Shia alike in the 70s. That is why Amal fought against Arafat for a period. There were, as you know, stronger magnets for Christians (esp Maronites) to join than the SLA. The secularized anti Mullah Shia were left between a rock and a hard place.

And while I do see that as a generally unreported tragedy (it has been reported and well understood in Israel, probably in Lebanon too but not outside our region), I don't think however that we (as Israel) should be responsible to free the Shia in the area (maybe not even the Christians or Druse who don't come half way to meet us at least)... which is what the SLA was tantamount to. They were a Lebanese secular party. They had families they hated what was happening in the south of Leb, and they had allies among the Christians. They believed in the old Lebanon.

Some of these people are salt of the earth but please have no allusions- there were many traitors. Most of whom never made the press. We lost a lot of ground due to the numerous betrayals, in the passing of information. Iranian intelligence is sharp, they used what ever they could- money or threats or both. And please do your own research, most were not Christian. Thats just a known thing. I think you are speaking very academically, without much research.

[Yala]

SLA were for YOU!

Nope. They were for themselves (Lebanon) and the majority were Shia.

[drinkaholic91]

While I am ouwet...I know SLAs....

Sad situation, because they fought for Israel, but have to live without country or their children and wives for years, spread out.

Bare in mind...if they go to Lebanon, they are tried as traitors from Hezbollah laws. If they go to Israel, you kick them back. And yet, these were men who left their homes to what....fight for ISrael, and they even speak Hebrew?

I was standing in my kitchen the other day, and an old SLA brought me some pics. There I saw a wife, and three kids. Ages 13, 11, and 10.

I asked him, when was the last time you saw them? He stated, "9 years ago."

I am determined to FIND A WAY to get his FAMILY here in USA! MY NEW CAUSE!

It is SLACK...that Israel, from what I hear....won't even rent an APARTMENT to SLA!

Hello Orangeblossom
SLA were made up of majority Muslim Shia,keino wled el Jnoub, but the top ranking officials were Christians, like Akel Hachem, Saad Haddad, Antoine Lahd

Many of the former militants have come back to Lebanon, but it's mainly the officials and their families that do not come back, indeed, they are hated by the public in the South, but why? Do you think they will hate them for no reason? Or it's because they tortured them for more than a decade?

Ma chefte shou 3emlo fiyon bil Jnoub? Khiam Prison? Hawejiz w rashwet? Ken fi ro3ob! They terrorized people, they were notorious.. This is a crime

Lesh heik 3emlo?

I am not demonizing the families, not at all, the children and the women deserve to come back, but I deeply resent all those SLA men who caused misery or torture for their fellow villages/townspeople, they aren't welcome in Lebanon because they terrorized people, I've been to Khiam Prison, if only you knew what they did there?

I know desperate times would force people to take extreme measures, and many may have joined the SLA out of desperation, but there can be no justification in killing or torturing or terrorizing your fellow citizen for the sake of what.....

Salam

[Yala]

Oh please...

As if Hezbollah never tortured other Lebanese! And they did it a lot more recent than the SLA! Please stop the hypocrisy drinkaholic. Every sect terrorized the other in Lebanon. None are innocent, least of all your politicians who are former warlords. Antoine Lahad is no more vicious than Jumblatt who murdered and ethnically cleansed the Christians of the Chouf.

Khiam prison is kept open for propaganda purposes. Let's see if you'll ever get a tour of the Syrian dungeons in which other Lebanse are still tortured to this very day. It will make Khiam look like Disneyland.

[bararallu]

Hello Orangeblossom
SLA were made up of majority Muslim Shia,keino wled el Jnoub, but the top ranking officials were Christians, like Akel Hachem, Saad Haddad, Antoine Lahd

OB doesn't believe us so it's good that you, a Lebanese, will say so. BTW, I used to see you on the Blue LF site. Same drinkaholic?

Many of the former militants have come back to Lebanon, but it's mainly the officials and their families that do not come back, indeed, they are hated by the public in the South, but why? Do you think they will hate them for no reason? Or it's because they tortured them for more than a decade?

The unsaid facts are many: it ties in the genesis of the HA and the SLA with the failure of Amal to protect Shia at the hands of Syrian aggression via Pali terrorism (also against them and the southern Christians which the Philange delt with in harsh terms, but no more harsh than was dealt against their population)

Ma chefte shou 3emlo fiyon bil Jnoub? Khiam Prison? Hawejiz w rashwet? Ken fi ro3ob! They terrorized people, they were notorious.. This is a crime

To a great deal of the Arab world, "Lebanon" is a crime.

I am not demonizing the families, not at all, the children and the women deserve to come back, but I deeply resent all those SLA men who caused misery or torture for their fellow villages/townspeople, they aren't welcome in Lebanon because they terrorized people, I've been to Khiam Prison, if only you knew what they did there?

Have you been to Nasrallas layer where he interrogates our soldiers? If not maybe when we invade next we'll send you a ticket and watch us do things to him .

I know desperate times would force people to take extreme measures, and many may have joined the SLA out of desperation, but there can be no justification in killing or torturing or terrorizing your fellow citizen for the sake of what.....

There is no justification for Lebanon's state of war against Israel. There is no justification for Lebanon's existence according to some countries, one I can think of to your north. There is no justification for brutality except for human nature. If you deny it, then it will come 10x.

[drinkaholic91]

Oh please...

As if Hezbollah never tortured other Lebanese! And they did it a lot more recent than the SLA! Please stop the hypocrisy drinkaholic. Every sect terrorized the other in Lebanon. None are innocent, least of all your politicians who are former warlords. Antoine Lahad is no more vicious than Jumblatt who murdered and ethnically cleansed the Christians of the Chouf.

Khiam prison is kept open for propaganda purposes. Let's see if you'll ever get a tour of the Syrian dungeons in which other Lebanse are still tortured to this very day. It will make Khiam look like Disneyland.

Dear Yala,
Why do you see me as a hypocrite? :-) Did I deny that every other sect terrorized the other in Lebanon,or that that nearly all our politicians are former warlords,or the viciousness of Jumblatt,or the brutality of Syrian prisons? I recognize all these tragic facts, and believe Jumblatt is probably the most vicious out of all the vicious leaders in Lebanon because not only did he ethnically cleanse the Christians of the Chouf, but he refuses to allow them back to their rightful land, and he doesnt sincerely regret it, and he acts deceitfully by pushing the average citizens to fight by spreading poison

But with all the above stated, does this undermine the brutal truth of Khiam prison? Yala,in your post,you made it seem like you're trying to cover the issue of Khiam prison by bringing up the other issues to show that they are worse, but do two wrongs make a right? If Lebanese citizens are being tortured in Syrian prisons, or Walid Jumblatt tortured Lebanese citizens in the mountain, then we shouldn't discuss or criticize Khiam prison?

[bararallu]

Conveniently leaving out the context, does make you a hypocrite of sorts. It is also a habit of Arab regimes to amplify anything to do with Jews as evil than to look at their own dirty laundry, which they poo poo or deny outright to save face (being mostly an honor-shame based culture). We have a very free press. Our dirty laundry hangs everywhere.

[drinkaholic91]

OB doesn't believe us so it's good that you, a Lebanese, will say so. BTW, I used to see you on the Blue LF site. Same drinkaholic?

Yes same drinkaholic :- ) I recognize you too, we've argued before on here :- )

The unsaid facts are many: it ties in the genesis of the HA and the SLA with the failure of Amal to protect Shia at the hands of Syrian aggression via Pali terrorism (also against them and the southern Christians which the Philange delt with in harsh terms, but no more harsh than was dealt against their population)

Interesting point bararallu,it's true, the Southerners suffered under the PLO when they were powerful in the South, and what you said may be true,(Though HA's strengthening was a reaction to Israeli invasion rather than PLO's presence I believe?) but still...What is the point when the oppressed turns into the oppressor!? In the end,didn't SLA commit crimes and violations?

To a great deal of the Arab world, "Lebanon" is a crime.

Yes correct!

Have you been to Nasrallas layer where he interrogates our soldiers? If not maybe when we invade next we'll send you a ticket and watch us do things to him .

HA tortured Israeli soldiers like the SLA tortured people in Khiam? :- )

There is no justification for Lebanon's state of war against Israel. There is no justification for Lebanon's existence according to some countries, one I can think of to your north. There is no justification for brutality except for human nature. If you deny it, then it will come 10x.

Well Bararallu...the Khiam prison was mainly run by the SLA guards,but also supported and approved by Israel back then and Israeli soldiers did participate sometimes in the prison -- Therefore the human violations that were committed in Khiam were also placed under the responsbility of Israel and now,Khiam prison is a sour memory in the minds of many Southerners for example, doesn't this further increase the resentment and hostility from Lebanese people towards Israel? If you were a Lebanese southerner, what would your reaction be towards such a place,naturally, honestly, without any bias? This is just a point I'm trying to make, to tell you why it's not easy to have Lebanon and Israel make peace at this current time, there are still many deep wounds

Why Lebanon and Israel are in a state of war, well, there's the Shebaa Farms, part of the Ghajar, the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon issues...I hope for things to be solved diplomatically but who knows!

[Yala]

Dear Yala,
Why do you see me as a hypocrite? :-) Did I deny that every other sect terrorized the other in Lebanon,or that that nearly all our politicians are former warlords,or the viciousness of Jumblatt,or the brutality of Syrian prisons? I recognize all these tragic facts, and believe Jumblatt is probably the most vicious out of all the vicious leaders in Lebanon because not only did he ethnically cleanse the Christians of the Chouf, but he refuses to allow them back to their rightful land, and he doesnt sincerely regret it, and he acts deceitfully by pushing the average citizens to fight by spreading poison

But with all the above stated, does this undermine the brutal truth of Khiam prison? Yala,in your post,you made it seem like you're trying to cover the issue of Khiam prison by bringing up the other issues to show that they are worse, but do two wrongs make a right? If Lebanese citizens are being tortured in Syrian prisons, or Walid Jumblatt tortured Lebanese citizens in the mountain, then we shouldn't discuss or criticize Khiam prison?

My point is very clear. If all of the other warlords are not only allowed back into Lebanon, but allowed to rule it, then it only fair that the leaders of SLA be allowed back as well. As I said, they are not any worse than the others.

As for Khiam prison, due to Hezbollah propaganda this place is equated with Auschwitz. For sure, the SLA did torture people there, I would never deny it, but again it's not worse then the rest of the torture chambers throughout Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War, yet it is the only prison you ever hear brought up. 2 wrongs do not make a right but it is wrong to single out the SLA and their prison.

[Yala]

HA tortured Israeli soldiers like the SLA tortured people in Khiam? :- )

HA only tortures Israeli soldiers? Hmmm, what went on in May 2008 then?

Therefore the human violations that were committed in Khiam were also placed under the responsbility of Israel and now,Khiam prison is a sour memory in the minds of many Southerners for example, doesn't this further increase the resentment and hostility from Lebanese people towards Israel? If you were a Lebanese southerner, what would your reaction be towards such a place,naturally, honestly, without any bias? This is just a point I'm trying to make, to tell you why it's not easy to have Lebanon and Israel make peace at this current time, there are still many deep wounds

And yet Syria occupied Lebanon for 30 years, still has Lebanese in their dungeons to say the least of their atrocities in Lebanon... and yet Lebanon and Syria are considered "sisterly countries." I guess it is okay because it was only Arabs killing Arabs?

This is what I mean by hypocrisy. The sad part is that you don't even see it...

[drinkaholic91]

Conveniently leaving out the context, does make you a hypocrite of sorts. It is also a habit of Arab regimes to amplify anything to do with Jews as evil than to look at their own dirty laundry, which they poo poo or deny outright to save face (being mostly an honor-shame based culture). We have a very free press. Our dirty laundry hangs everywhere.

Bararallu, how did I conveniently leave out things when I am criticising Khiam prison? This is a thread about the SLA, and I am stating my opinion on why I hate the SLA,and one of the reasons is Khiam prison! Why is it such a wrong thing, to criticize this prison? Just because it's SLA-affiliated and Israeli-affiliated, so there's must be a good justification to why it was there, it's impossible that it was actually an evil place? Why if I criticized the lack of human rights that occured in this prison, it means i'm a hypocrite because i'm not mentioning the tortures other militias and countries did? How do you know i'm not against the Syrian tortures of Lebanese detainees, or what Walid Jumblatt did....

If I'm against Khiam prison, it doesn't mean i'm turning my eye on other violations...

Regarding Arab regimes, unfortunely, most are dictatorships or non-democratic states, most have little freedom of press, little human rights, and don't accept self-criticism,no denial to that, but what are you trying to say..? That Khiam prison's issue was exaggerated to villify the Jewish people?

That is an outrageous claim...I mean we could argue for hours hehe but look all I'm trying to say bararallu is that I am *not* criticising Khiam prison simply out of hatred for Jews, not at all, I have no hate at all for the Jewish people,

I am criticising Khiam prison and the SLA out of a completely humanitarian point of view,along with the fact that I'm a Lebanese, so it hurts me to see such a place on our land -- Why is it hard to believe that Israel,or Israeli-supported grups,could commit a bad thing? Is any criticism considered anti-semitism? That's unfair if you think so bararallu because that is not the case at all

Lebanon actually is different though btw, it has freedom of press (most of the time), you are free to criticize the president, the mufti, the patriarch, a political leader/party..etc, so not at all, there was no exaggeration, this is not about Arab countries' stance towards the prison,but just the Lebanese citizens' own opinion because they know this prison,they've seen, they've been in it, so why deny the truth? Khiam prison was denounced as it was rightfully seen, there was no exaggeration! All that was said that torture happened there,it was an awful place, and the SLA and Israel are responsible for the violations that happened there -- What is wrong with this,I don't understand? :-/

[drinkaholic91]

My point is very clear. If all of the other warlords are not only allowed back into Lebanon, but allowed to rule it, then it only fair that the leaders of SLA be allowed back as well. As I said, they are not any worse than the others.

No disagreement here Yala,
All warlords in Lebanon shouldnt be allowed in Lebanon,but unfortunately,this is Lebanon, too many wrongs on the inside,the political class is still the same rotten,murderous one as that in the civil war, feudalism rules

As for Khiam prison, due to Hezbollah propaganda this place is equated with Auschwitz. For sure, the SLA did torture people there, I would never deny it, but again it's not worse then the rest of the torture chambers throughout Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War, yet it is the only prison you ever hear brought up. 2 wrongs do not make a right but it is wrong to single out the SLA and their prison.

I don't think anybody is comparing Khiam prison to Auschwitz

I agree all torture chambers that were in Lebanon should be constantly denounced

I believe, the reason why Khiam prison is always brought up, is because, look, we know all the other militias were,in the end of the day, brutal militias, and we wouldnt expect any better from them or those who fund them

While, Israel, it claims to be the most democratic state in the Middle East, and it never attacks or aggresses against anybody, but rather it claims to only act in self-defence..
Ok, so what happens in South Lebanon back in the occuption days? Khiam prison is set up..Who is funding it and allowing its existence? Israel, and who is running it, the SLA -- What's happening there? All sorts of torture,all sorts of violations...These are self-defence measures? These are the actions of a democratic state?

It's just that when a state that claims to be a democratic,self-defending state sets up a barbaric place, surrounded by minefields in order for the prisoners not to run away, with civilians detained and tortured without a trial, this is the pure hypocrisy!!! this is the double standards!!

HA only tortures Israeli soldiers? Hmmm, what went on in May 2008 then?

I'm against the May 2008 events, and denounce it

And yet Syria occupied Lebanon for 30 years, still has Lebanese in their dungeons to say the least of their atrocities in Lebanon... and yet Lebanon and Syria are considered "sisterly countries." I guess it is okay because it was only Arabs killing Arabs?

This is what I mean by hypocrisy. The sad part is that you don't even see it...

I see very well what Syria did in Lebanon,but I'm wondering why you're assuming that I'm blind about this or not denouncing what Syria did in Lebanon? It's true unfortunately many Lebanese do not denounce what the Syrian regime did in Lebanon, I don't know why...But if one denounces the Israeli actions in Lebanon, it doesn't mean they don't denounce the Syrian actions in Lebanon, and vice versa

(Btw there are many Lebanese who consider Israel a sisterly country and don't see Israel's actions as wrong so it's a bit balanced! )

[Yala]

No disagreement here Yala,
All warlords in Lebanon shouldnt be allowed in Lebanon,but unfortunately,this is Lebanon, too many wrongs on the inside,the political class is still the same rotten,murderous one as that in the civil war, feudalism rules

Yes, Lebanon is too sectarian and not much has changed, which is why Federalism was the perfect solution...but the Arab world will not allow it. The know Federalism is the only thing that will allow the Christians to remain, and they don't want that, not Iran nor Saudi Arabia who uses their proxies to destabilize the country.

I don't think anybody is comparing Khiam prison to Auschwitz

I agree all torture chambers that were in Lebanon should be constantly denounced

I believe, the reason why Khiam prison is always brought up, is because, look, we know all the other militias were,in the end of the day, brutal militias, and we wouldnt expect any better from them or those who fund them

While, Israel, it claims to be the most democratic state in the Middle East, and it never attacks or aggresses against anybody, but rather it claims to only act in self-defence..
Ok, so what happens in South Lebanon back in the occuption days? Khiam prison is set up..Who is funding it and allowing its existence? Israel, and who is running it, the SLA -- What's happening there? All sorts of torture,all sorts of violations...These are self-defence measures? These are the actions of a democratic state?

It doesn't matter what Israel claims or even is, because regardless of that the Arab world paints Israel as this vicious, criminal state much worse than the Arab regimes, and that is just ridiculous.

It's just that when a state that claims to be a democratic,self-defending state sets up a barbaric place, surrounded by minefields in order for the prisoners not to run away, with civilians detained and tortured without a trial, this is the pure hypocrisy!!! this is the double standards!!

Israel could not babysit the SLA day and night. I am SURE Israel turned a blind eye to the torture done by the SLA against their enemies but the fact is that Israel does not torture their prisoners, and you can look at your neighbor the child murderer Sami Kuntar for proof.

I'm against the May 2008 events, and denounce it

I know, but you speak like HA only fights and tortures Israeli soldiers...Now HA are fighting for the Palestinians when they used to massacre them. What a joke.

I see very well what Syria did in Lebanon,but I'm wondering why you're assuming that I'm blind about this or not denouncing what Syria did in Lebanon? It's true unfortunately many Lebanese do not denounce what the Syrian regime did in Lebanon, I don't know why...But if one denounces the Israeli actions in Lebanon, it doesn't mean they don't denounce the Syrian actions in Lebanon, and vice versa

(Btw there are many Lebanese who consider Israel a sisterly country and don't see Israel's actions as wrong so it's a bit balanced! )

I know, but can they say this on TV or out loud?

Look, sure Israel stayed in Lebanon wayyyyyy too long. After they kicked out the PLO they should've left. I don't defend all of Israel's actions but I admit I don't know all the circumstances on why they stayed for so long.

[bararallu]

Yes same drinkaholic :- ) I recognize you too, we've argued before on here :- )

I prefer debate to argument.

Though HA's strengthening was a reaction to Israeli invasion rather than PLO's presence I believe?

No. HA was created explicitly by the Iranians to help them execute their foreign policy. They were enabled in doing so b/c Amal failed so miserably defending the people of the south from Palestinian terrorism. This is not my opinion but SLA (= secular, anti Iranian Shia) from the South, some of whom I know personally. HA took advantage of the vacume that Amal's failure created. SLA was created from the roots to defend Chirstians and Shia from Palestinians and it stayed in effect to defend secular Shia and Christians from Mullah aggression. It was a legitimate party and most LEbanese could not embrase it because it was aligned with Israel, or more poignantly would be hunted down as traitors to the great Arab cause by the Syrians and they snoopy followers.

What is the point when the oppressed turns into the oppressor!? In the end,didn't SLA commit crimes and violations?

In the ocean does a shark commit more crimes than a killer whale? If you say there is an ethical system in place then I will call you on it. Recognizable ethics are based on two things as far as I'm concerned- precedence and reciprocity. Lebanon, whether you like it or not has tossed these simple things out the window. It engaged in a war of annihilation against the Jewish community in Israel. It invaded along with all the other decrepit Arab countries.

It sheltered terrorists, and it celebrated our deaths. We have no obligation to help, if we are compelled to turn the other cheek we will but only because we are not predators like your other neighbors. Eventually we will not turn the other cheek and Lebanon will be consumed by its alignment with the people who aim to slaughter us to the last.

HA tortured Israeli soldiers like the SLA tortured people in Khiam? :- )

SLA did not attack the South, HA attacked both. There is your difference for one.

Well Bararallu...the Khiam prison was mainly run by the SLA guards,but also supported and approved by Israel back then and Israeli soldiers did participate sometimes in the prison --

On those terms your govt has no legitimacy since HA is part of the Govt. Not to mention that other parties routinely torture captured prisoners. No one in the ME, except for Israel abides with civilized conventions for Warfare. And one day that too will stop, because we wont fight with one hand tied behind our back.

Therefore the human violations that were committed in Khiam were also placed under the responsbility of Israel and now,Khiam prison is a sour memory in the minds of many

Right, so is the death of Kennedy, Elvis and Arafat.

Southerners for example, doesn't this further increase the resentment and hostility from Lebanese people towards Israel?

They don't need excuses. They have 24/7 anti-Semitic propaganda enough.

Why Lebanon and Israel are in a state of war, well, there's the Shebaa Farms, part of the Ghajar,

This is BS. Israel presented to the UN to move the farms to Lebanon, Syria has not replied to the UN on the status. Currently *the UN* sees the farms as part of Syria not Lebanon. Take it up with Syria and the UN. You can have the farms. I've been there and it's nothing to love.

the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon issues...I hope for things to be solved diplomatically but who knows!

Lebanon should not have invaded Israel and displace Syrian felahin (aka "Palestinians"). That is your #1 answer.

but what are you trying to say..? That Khiam prison's issue was exaggerated to villify the Jewish people?

Correct, like everything else in the ME. People dont like to look in their own messy houses, they'd rather point their finger at the Jew. Been there, seen that.