British Jews On Israel

[maven]

-British Jews On Israel-

This excellent debate between two British leftists, a Palestinian and two British Jews gives a remarkably good view of how people in Britain view Israel and the Palestinian question.

Though the presenter is liberal-leftist Andrew Gilligan he does provide balance for Israel as the programme goes on.

The debate shows the two main attitudes of British Jews to Israel; Belief in peace and disbelief in peace.

click the PLAY button to view:
http://www.presstv.ir/programs/player/?id=97443#

[maven]

A long and interesting portrait of Jewish sentiments on Israel in the United Kingdom:

-What British Jews Think Of Israel-

Extract:
For Britain's 267,000 Jews, liberal by instinct and socially progressive, Israel represents their greatest hope and, at times, their deepest shame. The nation that was forged in the aftermath of the Holocaust was once regarded as a bold experiment in democracy and collective living. Now it stands accused of the same acts of terror with which it condemns its enemies. Linda Grant asks the children of the Diaspora how they see the Promised Land

The rights and wrongs of the escalating Gaza crisis have provoked a ferocious expression of opposing viewpoints inside the Jewish community itself. It took only 48 hours for the organisation Jews for Justice for Palestinians to collect the names of 300 British Jews, including Harold Pinter, Mike Leigh and Gillian Slovo, together with small donations worth £10,000 to pay for a full-page advertisement in The Times condemning Israel's bombing of the power station in Gaza that has deprived the civilian population of water, food and dialysis machines, and which has led some to make comparisons with conditions in the Warsaw ghetto.

Others, while sharing the horror at the fate of the Gazans, are discomforted by the advertisement. Why The Times, asked the columnist Jonathan Freedland, instead of the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz? A debate is underway in which one side argues that speaking out against Israel is necessary to avoid the growth of anti-Semitism, while others counter that there can be no excuses for racism.

Reform Rabbi Tony Bayfield, writing in The Guardian, described a deepening dilemma for many British Jews, torn between dismay and despair at Israel's actions and anger at the response to them in the British media. "As I listen to the news, with its details of Israel's return to Gaza, I cringe," he wrote. "I cringe at the continuing involvement of Israeli Jews in the suffering of Palestinians. I cringe because I can't believe that it will advance the cause of peace. I cringe at the seeming hopelessness of it all. But I also become incandescent at the sanctimonious advice and the hypocritical disavowal of any responsibility that is so prevalent in this country and even in certain quarters of the Church."

There is a perception among the general public that most, if not all, Jews support Israel or are not prepared to criticise it in public. Some critics detect a seamless link between US policy, American Jewish lobby groups and political opinion in Golders Green.

Responding to criticism that the Board of Deputies of British Jews should have spoken out against Israeli policy, Jon Benjamin, its chief executive, argues: "We are speaking on behalf of the British Jewish community to the extent that the way Israel is reported in the media impacts on us. I have nothing to say about the attacks on Gaza, but if we saw any upsurge of anti-Semitic attacks because of the way that story had broken, doubtless we would have something to say about that."

CONTINUED:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...el-408400.html

[Yala]

The British Jewish community and their support of Israel and the Jewish people has been a big disappointment as far as I'm concerned. The majority remind me very much of the Jewish community in Iran.

[Kachah]

The general European disorientation and the influence of the Left is undeniable. One would hope that yet again Britain would retain it's status of the island of freedom and common sense, but apparently it's been overfertilized with the "European values" which the Jews of Britain are falling victims to.

[Bill Sticker]

I am not Jewish but the reason I decided to join this forum was because I became annoyed by a site I discovered a week ago called Indy Media. This is an extreme left wing site and they were posiing lies about an Orangemans parade to be held through Coventry in England..

The basically tried to link the Orange parade with the odious BNP (British National Party) virtually calling us nazis, their purpose in this was a threat to disrupt or attack the Orangemen.

I replied to this slur by posting photos of black people participating in our Ulster Orange parades and also pointing out that it was to a loyal Ulsterman namely Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery that the nazis formally surrendered on Luneberg Heath
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/06/432227.html












The thing which really annoyed me though was when I explored this site further I discovered these Leftists claiming they had successfully disrupted a Salute to Isreal day
so I posted a reply to that too which they removed. I have tried to repost it but to no avail. So not to be defeated I googled your site and here I am!!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/07/402326.html?c=on

[Bill Sticker]

PS the Coventry Orange parade passed off peacefully

Midlands Provincial Grand Orange Lodge

Annual Boyne Parade & Service

Coventry 20th June 2009


Brethren from many Lodges throughout England and indeed visitors from further afield, gathered at the Coventry War Memorial car park at 2pm. At 2.15pm the parade set off for a short walk to the War Memorial, where a wreath was laid by digntaries from the Grand Orange Lodge of England.


Brethren from LOL 842 showing their colours, before the Parade

From this point, the Parade took a route towards the city centre. Along with the many Lodges, were three bands, Everton Road Protestant Boys Flute Band, Star of Toxteth Concertina Band and Corby Purple Star Flute Band.

It was regrettable that certain locals had decided to erect plastic Irish Tricolours and bunting in one of the streets which the Parade passed through, but this rather pathetic attempt at provocation and incitement only strengthened the resolve of Brethren and bandsmen alike.

The parade stopped at the Martyrs' Memorial in Mile Lane. This commemorates the burning of eleven Protestant Martyrs between 1510 and 1555. Their "crime" was being Protestant and of wishing to read the Bible, translated from Latin into their own English language. The memorial is close to the spot where they were burnt.
A wreath was laid here in remembrance of those brave martyrs.


Martyr's Memorial in Coventry

The parade passed from here, via the subway to Speakers' Corner, where there was an open air service. The Right Worshipful Deputy Provincial Grand Master of Midlands Province,
Bro W Ramsay, opened the service and amongst those to speak was the
Most Worshipful Grand Master of England, Bro. R Bather.

At the conclusion of the service, the Parade walked the short distance to St. John's Street, where, after singing Land of Hope and Glory and the National Anthem, the Parade fell out.
A social event was held in the city in the evening.

The Midlands Provincial Grand Lodge had been trying for several years to gain permission from Coventry Council and Police, for this Boyne Parade to go ahead. Each time they applied, obstacles were put in their way and indeed in the run up to the parade, negative and alarmist reports in the left-wing biased press did not help their cause. Great credit must go to the Midlands Province and the Coventry Lodge in particular for their perseverance in the face of an openly hostile media and section of the local community.
Well done and many thanks to all involved for a very enjoyable occasion!


Open-air Service at Speaker's Corner

[maven]

The support of the Orange lodges for Israel is appreciated. Hopefully they could fly more Israeli flags on the 12th.

[Bill Sticker]

Thanks for that and we will fly the Isreal flags.

Oh by the way the 12th is on the 13th this year and the 13th is on the 14th. (only in Ulster)

Due to the fact the Twelfth falls on a Sunday

As to the bannerette the lodge members are holding theres a strong Jewish connection if you bear with me as I explain. This depicts the Battle of the Somme which occoured on the 1st of July 1916. 5500 Ulstermen our bravest and best were killed on that fateful afternoon carrying out the greatest charge of that European war. They penetrated further and deeper into enemy lines than any other British unit that day and uniquely achieving their objectives. Support was lacking however and the German machineguns were merciless.

Their wreckless courage was heightened by the fact of the date of their attack. The 1st of July is a date etched indelibly into the pshyce of Ulsters loyalists since by the old calander that was the very date King William III Prince of Orange forded the Boyne river to defeat King James II on the 1st July 1690.

These men talked of little else prior to their magnificent courageous actions that fateful morning. For them the Somme River became their River Boyne and they had the full weight of their history and the heroics of their ancestors to spur them to live up to the legend.

Many prior to going over the top donned their Orange Sashes. They wold not be found wanting either by their forebears or generations of Ulstermen yet unborn.

AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN AND IN THE MORNING WE WILL REMEMBER THEM!

These men of the Ulster 36th division were formally members of the original Ulster Volunteer Force which Lord Edward Carson formed from the citizens of Ulster who resisted the English government imposing Irish Home Rule on Ulster as they would not be ruled by Dublin (Then or now)

The volunteers needed weapons and there happened to be a good friend of Captain Fred Crawford one Benny Spiro whoes brother in Germany could provide the weapons required. The followin pictures from the period explain a bit more:-




PS When war came Lord Carson immediately dropped all thought of resistance to England in return for a suspension of Home Rule and offerd the Volunteers to Lord Kitchner as a highly trained and very highly motivated force. They had to give up the guns which Bruno had supplied them in exchange for standard issue British ones. Men who could shoot the eye out of a squirrel with Brunos rifles suddenly couldnt hit a barn door.

The inferior quality of the British Armys weapons was not helped by poorly made American ammunition somthing many troops paid dearly for later.

[Bill Sticker]

It was an Ulsterman Blair Maine who helped form the Long Range Desert Group later the Special Air Service which helped begin the defeat of Hitler. He went on to become the most decorated soldier in the British Army during WWII and as Churchill stated

"Before Alamein there were no victories, after Alamein there were no defeats"

Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery (Also an Ulsterman) the architect of that victory, orders to his troops after Churchill put him in charge in August 1942 are as revelant for Ulster Scots today as when he issued them:-

"I then cancelled orders about further withdrawals. I issued new orders that if Rommel attacked we would fight him on ground where we now stood: There would be no withdrawal and NO SURRENDER!"

It is also then fitting that it was to this Loyal Ulsterman that the nazis finally surrendered at Luneberg Heath on 3rd May 1945

"It was here in Northern Ireland that the American Army first began to concentrate for our share in the attack upon the citadel of continental Europe. From here started the long, hard march to Allied victory. Without Northern Ireland I do not see how the American Forces could have been concentrated to begin the invasion of Europe. If Ulster had not been a definite, co-operative part of the British Empire and had not been available for our use, I do not see how the build-up could have been carried out in England."
- PRESIDENT EISENHOWER.

[The Israeli Guy]

The majority remind me very much of the Jewish community in Iran.

You can't expect from the Judeans in Iran to say that they support Israel when the halter is arround their neck. Supporting Israel in Iran is considered as treason and the Judeans there don't want to risk their life. Don't forget that about 9 years ago the Iranian regime framed couple of Judeans there for spying for Israel.

The Judeans in Iran are in a very sensible situation, from the one hand they can't say that they support Israel and from the other hand they can't even leave Iran in legal way and if they want to live Iran in illegal way they have to give up their property there because when a Judean in Iran wants to sell his property it means that he wants to escape from the country.

I think most of the Judeans in Britain do support Israel, there are a few jewboys there who prefer to please their gentile landlords and to spit lies on their own Judean nation, like Gerald Kofman, instead of supporting Israel, again, they are few but they make noise as if they are the majority.

Anyway, the state of Israel doesn't need that Judeans in Iran or in Britain will say that they support us, we support ourselves and we are depend only upon ourselves.

[The Israeli Guy]

It was an Ulsterman Blair Maine who helped form the Long Range Desert Group later the Special Air Service which helped begin the defeat of Hitler. He went on to become the most decorated soldier in the British Army during WWII and as Churchill stated

Yeah, and it was also the British regime who refused to attack the railways that led to the death camps because it wanted that more Judeans will be murdered by the nazis.

It was also the British regime who prevented from Judeans who were escaping from the nazis to arrive to their homeland and by that sentenced their fate to be murdered in the death camps.

It was also the British regime whose officers raped tortured and murdered young Judeans during the mandate.

It was a British officer called Roy Farran who smashed the skull of a young Judean lad. It was a British general who expressed his views on our nation in his letters to his lover, his name was Evelyn Barker, if this name is telling you something.

It were the British who instigated the Arab enemy to carry out terror attacks against us and forbidden us to hold weapons in order to defend ourselves.

The list is long and I will post a whole thread about the British atrocities against our nation.

Britain (and the rest of the allies, including the Americans) did ZERO in order to stop the holocaust.

I don't accuse you personally, Bill Sticker, in the atrocities of your past regime although your current regime holds the same views about our nation and homeland even today.

[bararallu]

You can't expect from the Judeans in Iran to say that they support Israel when the halter is arround their neck. Supporting Israel in Iran is considered as treason and the Judeans there don't want to risk their life. Don't forget that about 9 years ago the Iranian regime framed couple of Judeans there for spying for Israel.

The Judeans in Iran are in a very sensible situation, from the one hand they can't say that they support Israel and from the other hand they can't even leave Iran in legal way and if they want to live Iran in illegal way they have to give up their property there because when a Judean in Iran wants to sell his property it means that he wants to escape from the country.

I think most of the Judeans in Britain do support Israel, there are a few jewboys there who prefer to please their gentile landlords and to spit lies on their own Judean nation, like Gerald Kofman, instead of supporting Israel, again, they are few but they make noise as if they are the majority.

Anyway, the state of Israel doesn't need that Judeans in Iran or in Britain will say that they support us, we support ourselves and we are depend only upon ourselves.

My Hebrew Brother. There may be some Israelites among those Judeans.

[Bill Sticker]

72% of all the bomber command crews did not survive the war. My uncle was shot down but did live to tell the tale unlike two members of his crew. The accuracy of bombing specific targets by dead reckoning was rudimentary at best and led directly to the policy of area boming which did not require such percision.

In war there are always those who will kill others to persue personal agendas but overall the British side did fight a just war.

If it were not so we would have easily have sided with the nazis as the distrust of the Russians was a huge worry at the time.

There were many French and Dutch civillians bombed simply because of the inaccuracy of the bombing techniques particularly from DDay onwards but they dont blame the RAF

[bararallu]

Britain did indeed fight a just war. It did not fight it for the Jews, or to mitigate any genocide (of all people involved not just Jews). Really, at any point in the war. Those camps and particular railroads were not tactical or strategic targets at any point. Neither were they for the Americans, nor the Russians. They all had their list of things to accomplish, mostly destroying Nazi Germany's ability to wage war. Which incidentally ended the genocide.

As Jews we should not have allusions about that. Ultimately self defense must be founded on our own [Israeli] capabilities. We have the wherewithal today to stand up to aggression against our kin, nearly globally. If we have allies in this world, then that is great. Poland and Czechoslovakia had allies. Allies that went to war on their behalf, and justly so... but they were unprepared to defend their borders and were malled by the Germans and Russians then as well. By the time the Allies came, the war was long over, and not for the lack of trying.

If it weren't for British perseverance at breaking the German air onslaught, no matter how much equipment the Americans sent over would have been all for naught. The lessons are universal for all to study and understand: Maslow's famous pyramid advances to a "large stick" right after air and water are secured, and then possibly with the use of said stick.

[The Israeli Guy]

My Hebrew Brother. There may be some Israelites among those Judeans.

Don't say "Israelites", say: Israelis.

I don't know what "Israelites" are. In the Torah which was written in Hebrew and was given to our nation publicly by G-d in the revelation of mt. Sinai there's no such thing as "Israelites" but 'Israelis' (Yisraelim in Hebrew) and we use this word till today to describe the people of our nation. The gentiles who translated the Torah to other languages changed the word 'Israelis' to "Israelites" alongside other mistakes that they did and I have many examples for that.

There's no difference between the words 'Judeans' (what the gentiles call "Jews" which is a mockery word of 'Judeans') and the word 'Israelis'. Pay attention that Israel isn't just a name of a state but first and for all a name of a nation (Am Yisrael) and the real meaning of the word 'Israeli' is someone who belongs to the nation of Israel and not "a citizen of a state called Israel". Judeans are people of the tribe of Judea which was one of the tribes of Israel thus Judeans are Israelis.

Also all the Judeans who live all around the world are Israelis and they don't have to be citizens of a state called Israel in order to be ones. When they go to synagogue and read the prayer books and the Torah they don't find the word Jews or Judeans there but 'Israelis', that's because the word 'Judeans' and the word "Jews" which is a mockery word of 'Judeans' were invented by the Persians who conquered the land of Israel and called all the Israelis in the name 'Judeans' because most of them were from the tribe of Judah who survived the Assyrian exile.

That's why Arab citizens of Israel don't define themselves as Israelis but as Arabs/"Palestinians" who are citizens of a state called Israel. They don't belong to the nation of Israel (Am Yisrael) but to the nation of Ishmael.

I talked about it lengthily in the end of my thread There's no such thing as "Palestine" in my signature.