"Kadima’s doctrine collapsed"

[Yala]

Netanyahu believes that should Israel lose the battle over the Goldstone Report, it would not be able to risk concessions to the Palestinians. In other words: It’s either Goldstone or a peace process. The two cannot go hand in hand.

Netanyahu’s view is presented as contradicting Kadima’s line. When Kadima led the government, it premised its willingness to make concessions on the notion that withdrawals grant Israel military freedom of maneuver. Should the Palestinians resume the fire, the world will see a harsh Israeli response; a “crazy” response even.

In Netanyahu’s view, the Goldstone Report proves that Kadima’s doctrine collapsed. The current government will make sure to include, in any future agreement, security arrangements that would enable the IDF to respond to any aggression from the Palestinian side. These security arrangements will be entrenched through international guarantees.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...791038,00.html

[curlyg]

That is the correct lesson to draw from the Gaza withdrawal. Not, as some think, that any withdrawal is impossible under any circumstances, but that a unilateral withdrawal is a bad idea unless there is no other choice. This is the main reason why I continue to support the two-state solution - only under an agreement can there be security arrangements for Israel.

[MGB8]

I disagree.

I don't mind the withdrawal, despite the fact that it means war. It lessens the demographic risks. And for all the harm of the Goldstone report, it's ultimately not going to make much difference. Ultimately, Europe and the Arabs will look to re-ghettoize Israel - not allowing Israeli officials to travel outside of Israel for fear of arrest, and using that as a means to delegitimize Israel. But that should only last while the power of oil lasts. Once that's gone... it's over. Israel just needs to make it another 20-30 years until the balance of energy power has substantially changed. That needs to be the game plan - avoid the demographic threat by either dumping large swaths of the WB or having a 2 state solution (or something in between - a federation, whatever), and making sure it can last until oil power is far weaker than it is today.

[Yala]

Exactly right MGB8.

[bararallu]

We Israelis and Jews, can accelerate this oil scenario pretty drastically. The tools are certainly there right now, and the effort needs to be redoubled. We should take all the aid the Americans, and make our own subsidies, and vest it into anti-petrol initiatives. Mostly technological and some into environmentalist activism. Israel should be the first nation in the world to be oil free. The world had enough of OPEC and Russian economic heroin.

[wat0n]

We Israelis and Jews, can accelerate this oil scenario pretty drastically. The tools are certainly there right now, and the effort needs to be redoubled. We should take all the aid the Americans, and make our own subsidies, and vest it into anti-petrol initiatives. Mostly technological and some into environmentalist activism. Israel should be the first nation in the world to be oil free. The world had enough of OPEC and Russian economic heroin.

It's not like Israel represents a big share in the market.

[bararallu]

It's not like Israel represents a big share in the market.

That is not it at all. To most it its an unimaginable thing to have a petrol free economy. Fact is, not only is it imaginable, but it is do-able with current technology and a little belt tightening at the outset. It just needs to be demonstrated and other nations will follow. Furthermore, the explosion in new industries would be like another industrial revolution.

[wat0n]

That is not it at all. To most it its an unimaginable thing to have a petrol free economy. Fact is, not only is it imaginable, but it is do-able with current technology and a little belt tightening at the outset. It just needs to be demonstrated and other nations will follow. Furthermore, the explosion in new industries would be like another industrial revolution.

It is possible to have a petrol free economy. And it would be very expensive too, that's why everyone uses petrol.

Unless you find a substitute that can be as cheap as petrol and/or you make petrol more expensive (with cap and trade or fuel taxes) people will keep using it.

[maven]

That is not it at all. To most it its an unimaginable thing to have a petrol free economy. Fact is, not only is it imaginable, but it is do-able with current technology and a little belt tightening at the outset. It just needs to be demonstrated and other nations will follow. Furthermore, the explosion in new industries would be like another industrial revolution.

I agree, Israel moving forward in such a positive way would show a light to vanish demons. All those trying to paint Israel into a corner by stressing the Gaza libel will have the public discussion of Israel radically changed.

Announcing such a move would put clear blue water between Israel and the Arab world, regaining the respect Israel had as the leading scientific thinker in the region and in this case contributing to the whole world and especially the young on one of the top issues facing the planet today.

I like that spirit of thinking; fortune favors the brave. Up to reading this post I was working out how Israel could just withdraw into her own shell but I am reminded that the strongest form of defence is attack. It highlights why the spirit of California was so successful; always looking towards new horizons to solve problems.

Would the authorities in Israel even consider that suggestion? I fear you may have to join the queu of broken hearts with good ideas ignored by government after government. Israel needs thinkers from the diaspora moving there and going into politics.

[bararallu]

I think it would be a win win for Likud to push this hard. We are a country of innovators aside from survivors, if we cant do this no one can. And we can do this. There is a lot of this on the table, sponsored by the Labor party in association with Peugeot to electrify all of the transportation grid. Personally I think Peugeot is not a great industrial partner for this- I'd say Subaru and some other Japanese and Korean manufacturers have better handle on the tech, and the Israeli market place.

[wat0n]

I think it would be a win win for Likud to push this hard. We are a country of innovators aside from survivors, if we cant do this no one can. And we can do this. There is a lot of this on the table, sponsored by the Labor party in association with Peugeot to electrify all of the transportation grid. Personally I think Peugeot is not a great industrial partner for this- I'd say Subaru and some other Japanese and Korean manufacturers have better handle on the tech, and the Israeli market place.

Well if the Israeli Gov't wants to fund research on economically viable alternatives to oil I surely support it.

But, I'm not really optimistic TBH. If you ask me, I think it's more realistic to use fuel taxes and/or cap and trade.

[bararallu]

Wat0n,

There is some reason to be optimistic. Israel is 1. used to immense taxes leveled on autos, 2. It's a relatively small country with a high auto turn over, 3. we get lots of wind, sun and if we want nuke power, 4., there is not the same concern about distance for the battery charge since our daily commute is relatively very short, 5., battery technology is pretty much there, 6., Most Israelis are behind the initiative and are waiting for solutions that they can get behind. If the govt would declare an initiative to do this and do this right, it would be done in 5 years and we would we way ahead of the curve and probably resell the tech to make the logistics easier if not the core tech, which I bet we would have dozens of patents on as well as a Nation. There needs to be a will to do it by the govt.

[wat0n]

Wat0n,

There is some reason to be optimistic. Israel is 1. used to immense taxes leveled on autos, 2. It's a relatively small country with a high auto turn over, 3. we get lots of wind, sun and if we want nuke power, 4., there is not the same concern about distance for the battery charge since our daily commute is relatively very short, 5., battery technology is pretty much there, 6., Most Israelis are behind the initiative and are waiting for solutions that they can get behind. If the govt would declare an initiative to do this and do this right, it would be done in 5 years and we would we way ahead of the curve and probably resell the tech to make the logistics easier if not the core tech, which I bet we would have dozens of patents on as well as a Nation. There needs to be a will to do it by the govt.

Well we would have to wait and see, but for example I'd say most of these things do not apply, for example, to the US.

If Israel is willing to do the R&D then that's great, but even though isolating itself from potential oil shocks would be great, having only Israel to stop using fuel isn't enough for ending oil power. It has to be cost effective for big economies like USA, the whole EU, China, India, Russia, Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, Japan, etc. as well. And well, like I said maybe the most realistic thing would be to use fuel taxes or cap and trade + a not so expensive substitute. If you make oil to be more expensive and have a cheaper substitute then it's just time to let the market system do its job

There are other important reasons for using fuel taxes and cap and trade (though actually most of the world already uses fuel taxes so in most of the world I should actually be speaking of raising them. Specially for big countries).

[Mediocrates]

Well in order to power electric cars you need to make electricity. Typically almost all electric power plants are coal fired. So first you'd have to replace them with nuclear or solar or other power plants and then power all the cars off that. The transition costs would be enormous. One other immediately plausible use for wide scale industrial employment of nuclear and solar is water desalination though.

[bararallu]

Well in order to power electric cars you need to make electricity. Typically almost all electric power plants are coal fired. So first you'd have to replace them with nuclear or solar or other power plants and then power all the cars off that. The transition costs would be enormous. One other immediately plausible use for wide scale industrial employment of nuclear and solar is water desalination though.

I'd personally like to see the next 1 trillion dollars in "stimulus" put into Nuclear etc reactors. We had enough digging of the parkways....