"Kadima’s doctrine collapsed"

[curlyg]

I agree with wat0n I really don't think Israel has the capacity to single handedly create a viable alternative to oil.

[bararallu]

Economics and Politics are both driven by ideas, and if they are demonstrated, viscerally, then more the probable they will be more widely adopted. Freeing ourselves from the OPEC noose is a prerogative of the State of Israel IMHO. If we happen to inspire other nation states, like the Asian Tiger economies, then better still. Its not either or.

[maven]

I agree with wat0n I really don't think Israel has the capacity to single handedly create a viable alternative to oil.

Israel's relativly small land mass makes it possibly one of the best countries in the world to go forward with such an experiment. Why give up before you even begin? Israel's climate also has a capacity to develope solar energy.
I once said to Sir Clive Sinclair "Best wishes on the development of the C6."
Maybe now is the time!

perhaps Israel could do what no other country has so far had the guts to do; automated main road systems which both feed energy to vehicles and control traffic speed and so use less energy and cause less accidents. Which move vehicles along tracks. So many ideas one could look at.

I am confident that Israel could also work with the Californian technology sector to find solutions to the battery problem. But all this can only happen if the goal is set.

[wat0n]

Israel's relativly small land mass makes it possibly one of the best countries in the world to go forward with such an experiment. Why give up before you even begin? Israel's climate also has a capacity to develope solar energy.
I once said to Sir Clive Sinclair "Best wishes on the development of the C6."
Maybe now is the time!

perhaps Israel could do what no other country has so far had the guts to do; automated main road systems which both feed energy to vehicles and control traffic speed and so use less energy and cause less accidents. Which move vehicles along tracks. So many ideas one could look at.

I am confident that Israel could also work with the Californian technology sector to find solutions to the battery problem. But all this can only happen if the goal is set.

Like I said, the problem is that any substitute should be used by other countries as well, because Israel is just too small for being a big player in the oil market.

Let's keep in mind that MGB talked about ending "oil power". That means then that the oil producers should end up earning significantly less money permanently. If only Israel stopped using oil the loss would be far from significant for them (as a %). But if other countries like the US, EU, China, Russia, Indonesia, Brazil, Mexico, etc stop using oil or even lower their demand significantly (as a % again) permanently it will have a significant effect for producers.

[bararallu]

Wat0n,

If your mainstay argument is to be correct then we would scarcely be beyond the abacus or the #2 pencil in accomplishing computation. Even if we factor in war, whereby R&D have no economic drivers, we would still be using vacuum tubes. We would certainly not see billions of dollars invested in the fist semiconductor plants in the late 60s. Not everything is compelled by social entropy....

And while Israel is at war, so that argument is amplified, it also has the benefit of the factors maven and I have listed. IMHO, the problem is just propensity to do the easy thing. Sometimes people and whole economies need to be shaken up. There are plenty of plausible reasons to do it and expect wider (beyond Israel) adoption. Here is one: we have another OPEC strike, they wont ship to the West if the West supports Israel. The way things are going with Obama I suspect that this is a card the Arabs and their tyrant friends may play. Now wouldn't it be awesome if Israel not only is prepared for that scenario internally but provides other countries the means to be oil free when they are under immense economic duress?

Another scenario: peek oil. They will very very soon (look at Mexico which has lost over 60% of it's reserves) run out of the easy oil. That means they have to dig into the shale, and that becomes stupendously more expensive. That means that new technology and new methodology will need to be put in place to do the same idiotic job of unearthing exhaustible hydrocarbons. Why not take that political and economic capital and manufacture virtually inexhaustible energy. I mean if I were in this market place I'd drop billions just to position myself in the post oil economy.

[wat0n]

Wat0n,

If your mainstay argument is to be correct then we would scarcely be beyond the abacus or the #2 pencil in accomplishing computation. Even if we factor in war, whereby R&D have no economic drivers, we would still be using vacuum tubes. We would certainly not see billions of dollars invested in the fist semiconductor plants in the late 60s. Not everything is compelled by social entropy....

And while Israel is at war, so that argument is amplified, it also has the benefit of the factors maven and I have listed. IMHO, the problem is just propensity to do the easy thing. Sometimes people and whole economies need to be shaken up. There are plenty of plausible reasons to do it and expect wider (beyond Israel) adoption. Here is one: we have another OPEC strike, they wont ship to the West if the West supports Israel. The way things are going with Obama I suspect that this is a card the Arabs and their tyrant friends may play. Now wouldn't it be awesome if Israel not only is prepared for that scenario internally but provides other countries the means to be oil free when they are under immense economic duress?

Another scenario: peek oil. They will very very soon (look at Mexico which has lost over 60% of it's reserves) run out of the easy oil. That means they have to dig into the shale, and that becomes stupendously more expensive. That means that new technology and new methodology will need to be put in place to do the same idiotic job of unearthing exhaustible hydrocarbons. Why not take that political and economic capital and manufacture virtually inexhaustible energy. I mean if I were in this market place I'd drop billions just to position myself in the post oil economy.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't try to do R&D to start replacing oil, the thing I'm saying is that we shouldn't depend *only* on R&D. Maybe peak oil will happen before any substitutes are widely used.

So, considering this maybe other methods like taxing oil could help as well:

1) By making oil more expensive it would be easier to develop substitutes (they wouldn't have to be as cheap as now). And that would give bigger incentives to the private sector for doing R&D on alternatives to oil.

2) Taxes/cap and trade revenues could be used to fund the R&D for finding alternatives and in some cases they could be used to pay the extra public debt incurred because of the crisis.

3) Also, making oil more expensive will help to decrease oil consumpion now and in the future. That means then that oil producers would earn less both now and in the future.

4) Maybe reducing oil consumption could help to delay peak oil.

5) At last, less oil consumption will help to save the enviroment (unrelated with this thread but it's still good ).

[bararallu]

Oh, I'm not against taxing oil. Far from it. I'm saying is treat the thing like digital tv turn over not managing tabaco purchases. You can use some economic tools to get most of the people to participate but to make sure it happens 100% you need something like a national project with a set time, like the US space/moon landing program etc.

[wat0n]

Oh, I'm not against taxing oil. Far from it. I'm saying is treat the thing like digital tv turn over not managing tabaco purchases. You can use some economic tools to get most of the people to participate but to make sure it happens 100% you need something like a national project with a set time, like the US space/moon landing program etc.

Oh sure, the gov'ts should fund R&D on alternatives for oil... But being realistic, it's safer to hedge rather than keep all your eggs in the same basket

[bararallu]

If the Americans can put a man on the moon, we can stop using oil in Israel. It will be a lot easier and proportionally cheaper.

[curlyg]

Speak of the devil...

"אם יש קהל שיכול להבין שאפשר להפוך את הבלתי אפשרי לאפשרי זה אתם", פנה נתניהו לקהל היושב באולם הועידה. "הערב אני מבקש לדבר איתכם על אחד התחומים החשובים בעולמינו - לבטל את התלות העולמית בנפט".

"התלות בנפט פוגעת בעולם כלכלית, בטחונית וסביבתית. יש לנו יעד וזה אפשרי. לפעמים דרושה רק המצאה אחת או שתיים כדי לשנות את העולם. המצאות שיחליפו את תלותינו בנפט הן אפשריות".

"האם ישראל היא זו שיכולה ליצור פריצת דרך גדולה שתפסיק תלות זו? אני מאמין שכן . לישראל יש שני משאבים אדירים מוחות ולבבות. לדעתי, ניתן יהיה להחליף את השימוש בנפט באנרגיות נקיות בתוך 10 שנים".

נתניהו הודיע כי יקים ועדה לאומית של מדענים תעשיינים והממשלה במטרה להביא לתוכנית מעשית ויעילה להחלפת הנפט תוך 10 שנים.

http://www.globes.co.il/news/article...00506931&fid=2

[bararallu]

And he is right. We have the means to do this. I think we just need him to make it more official and fund it to the hilt and put a bloody date on it. 10 Years for example and milestones to that point.