House passes health care bill on close vote

[Sanket]

House passes health care bill on close vote

WASHINGTON – In a victory for President Barack Obama, the Democratic-controlled House narrowly passed landmark health care legislation Saturday night to expand coverage to tens of millions who lack it and place tough new restrictions on the insurance industry. Republican opposition was nearly unanimous.

The 220-215 vote cleared the way for the Senate to begin a long-delayed debate on the issue that has come to overshadow all others in Congress.

A triumphant Speaker Nancy Pelosi likened the legislation to the passage of Social Security in 1935 and Medicare 30 years later — and Obama issued a statement saying, "I look forward to signing it into law by the end of the year."

"It provides coverage for 96 percent of Americans. It offers everyone, regardless of health or income, the peace of mind that comes from knowing they will have access to affordable health care when they need it," said Rep. John Dingell, the 83-year-old Michigan lawmaker who has introduced national health insurance in every Congress since succeeding his father in 1955.

In the run-up to a final vote, conservatives from the two political parties joined forces to impose tough new restrictions on abortion coverage in insurance policies to be sold to many individuals and small groups. They prevailed on a roll call of 240-194.

Ironically, that only solidified support for the legislation, clearing the way for conservative Democrats to vote for it.

The legislation would require most Americans to carry insurance and provide federal subsidies to those who otherwise could not afford it. Large companies would have to offer coverage to their employees. Both consumers and companies would be slapped with penalties if they defied the government's mandates.

Insurance industry practices such as denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions would be banned, and insurers would no longer be able to charge higher premiums on the basis of gender or medical history. In a further slap, the industry would lose its exemption from federal antitrust restrictions on price fixing and market allocation.

At its core, the measure would create a federally regulated marketplace where consumers could shop for coverage. In the bill's most controversial provision, the government would sell insurance, although the Congressional Budget Office forecasts that premiums for it would be more expensive than for policies sold by private firms.
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House passes health care bill on close vote

[ranchcer]

I wish him well
That historical vote will be remembered as the day an American president projected The U.S
into the 21th century and will elevate Mr Obama from Power to Glory, having succeded where others failed. My view is that taxepayers are better off investing into a fair, affordable and efficient H.C system than filling in the holes left by the Wall Street Mob.
What is wrong with paying more taxes if it is for the common good?

[bararallu]

Filibustering, lying and obfuscating their way to anti prosperity. Obama will be remembered as "less than Carter."

[Mil]

I wish him well

God help us... they pass this.

[Kenneth]

Don't worry. It won't pass the final hurdle. I can feel it. Meanwhile if you're feeling down...

[wat0n]

What's so wrong with this bill?

[ranchcer]

What's so wrong with this bill?

I cannot tell you as I do not grasp all its negative implications. But what seems to be right and a good starting point for this bill is that it contemplates the expansion of H.C. coverage to 50 millions of poorly insured or uninsured American citizens who presently have to get by on aspirin tablets or travel abroad to get cheaper medicine they cannot afford back home.
Of course, that's only part of the story... Regardless of the side you are on, it is a sad affair for a country who was first to plant the stars and stripes flag on the moon..
By the way, I wish you all a good health.

[bararallu]

What's so wrong with this bill?

It will put every single small business out of business. You see some countries don't have "tips" for food or drink because there is an inclusive social net (or otherwise institutions/conventions) to cover that. In that sense the US has a completely divergent and self correcting political economy. People tip, since that is an institution.

The country has it's own functional ecosystem. Given the standards of living, very functional. The US [to date], unlike many places, is highly benefiting and benefited by entrepreneurs historically.

As is, there is a high turn over given insane barriers to entry like burdensome taxes, the state of the economy, as well as competition from abroad that have 0 health care (not to mention anything else). Adding on is economic brutality.

Introducing this one "equalizer" is the equivalent of inoculating with Ebola. Yeah some people will survive and the country may or may not be stronger: most will die bleeding from every orifice in horrible pain.

[wat0n]

It will put every single small business out of business. You see some countries don't have "tips" for food or drink because there is an inclusive social net (or otherwise institutions/conventions) to cover that. In that sense the US has a completely divergent and self correcting political economy. People tip, since that is an institution.

The country has it's own functional ecosystem. Given the standards of living, very functional. The US [to date], unlike many places, is highly benefiting and benefited by entrepreneurs historically.

As is, there is a high turn over given insane barriers to entry like burdensome taxes, the state of the economy, as well as competition from abroad that have 0 health care (not to mention anything else). Adding on is economic brutality.

Introducing this one "equalizer" is the equivalent of inoculating with Ebola. Yeah some people will survive and the country may or may not be stronger: most will die bleeding from every orifice in horrible pain.

2 questions:

1) Are there any estimates on how will the reform impact small businesses?

2) If I'm not mistaken, under the current systems businesses do pay for the insurance of the workers who have insurance, right? (If it works like in here, then they do... Well, sort of).

[bararallu]

1) Are there any estimates on how will the reform impact small businesses?

Its too early to do actual estimates, the bill is incomplete.
Some food for thought:

http://www.americanbankingnews.com/2...lth-care-bill/
http://healthcare-economist.com/2009...mental-market/
http://healthcare-economist.com/2008...mall-business/

2) If I'm not mistaken, under the current systems businesses do pay for the insurance of the workers who have insurance, right? (If it works like in here, then they do... Well, sort of).

No. Its not mandatory for small businesses or business of a small number (have to look it up) employees. I would have to close my doors if this bill would come to fruition...for example. The problem is that the bill in it's current state implicitly identifies small business employees on a very small salary basis. Ye Olde Quantity > Quality. Namely if I had 10 guys and they made less than 50k each, then everything *maybe* ok. Maybe. If I had 3 consultants- that I passed through $$ wise to my customers (for all intents and purposes) and total at $501k the bloodletting would be insane. There are other more egregious problems with this bill, like all bills that basically play robin hood, but this aspect directly effects me personally.

BTW, the tax credits that they are dangling have and will have massive loopholes for the gov to basically tax us into the ground. They also talk about premiums "possibly dropping"... BS. Like inflation that crap only climbs into the stratosphere.

[wat0n]

Its too early to do actual estimates, the bill is incomplete.
Some food for thought:

http://www.americanbankingnews.com/2...lth-care-bill/
http://healthcare-economist.com/2009...mental-market/
http://healthcare-economist.com/2008...mall-business/



No. Its not mandatory for small businesses or business of a small number (have to look it up) employees. I would have to close my doors if this bill would come to fruition...for example. The problem is that the bill in it's current state implicitly identifies small business employees on a very small salary basis. Ye Olde Quantity > Quality. Namely if I had 10 guys and they made less than 50k each, then everything *maybe* ok. Maybe. If I had 3 consultants- that I passed through $$ wise to my customers (for all intents and purposes) and total at $501k the bloodletting would be insane. There are other more egregious problems with this bill, like all bills that basically play robin hood, but this aspect directly effects me personally.

BTW, the tax credits that they are dangling have and will have massive loopholes for the gov to basically tax us into the ground. They also talk about premiums "possibly dropping"... BS. Like inflation that crap only climbs into the stratosphere.

OK I see. Up here it's the employee, not the employer, the one who must get insurance, but the premium is discounted from the worker's wage and collected and paid by the firm (that's why I said "sort of", the worker chooses which insurance to buy, firms collect the cash), so our systems are different on that matter...

Now I guess that in the long run it should affect wage negotiations so both employer and employee would end up paying part of the insurance (I'm guessing this is regardless of who pays). I'm treating it as some sort of tax...

Regarding the premiums, they should go down because you deal with the adverse selection issues that arise when you don't force people to buy insurance. Maybe a public option will help too, it could deal with the workers who wouldn't be able to get insurance even with the lower premiums.

[ranchcer]

Bararallu, as an outsider, my view is that people cannot bury their heads in the sand much longer. Millions of Americans poorly insured or uninsured is plainly unacceptable. How did you get there?
Time has come for a long term common vision to grant the U.S the legitimacy to claim and prove that it is an advanced nation with some kind of social equality and welfare rights for all. I am not talking here about political ideology or even Christian or Jewish values. Can you dismiss your governement's obligation to intervene in socio-economic affairs? Obama has the guts to tackle a tough and fundamental issue neglected by former administartions and he deserves support.

Nowdays, our modern industries cannot benefit from unqualified, demotivated, under-paid. Sick or unhealthy labour units and i dispute the fact that small entrepreneurs will go bankrupt because of this bill. We all have been hit by human greed and the Wall Street culture, as a result, consumers's demand has dropped and it is no excuse to cut back on food, education or health. I fully agree that small businesses must survive and they are not meant to create or sustain jobs. Downsize yours temporarily like everyone else in times of recession. If you have 10 workers, let go of two and get the rest more efficient and spirited (Hip Hop classes is a good option ).
God bless America...and all Americans, too.

Some more food for your thoughts

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php

[bararallu]

Bararallu, as an outsider, my view is that people cannot bury their heads in the sand much longer.

You mean you are tired of your side of the continent being run by unelected technocrats that are dissolving your state sovereignty and 800 year old nation, and subsidizing those unwilling to work [hard esp] with those that do? Ok... I agree.

Millions of Americans poorly insured or uninsured is plainly unacceptable. How did you get there?

Africa is poor because of handouts, not because there is a lack of them. Human nature is such that "free" anything means something 1. taken for granted, 2. is unearned and 3. self negating and habbit forming... like heroin that subverts the body's indogenous opiate neurotransmitters.

Time has come for a long term common vision to grant the U.S the legitimacy to claim and prove that it is an advanced nation with some kind of social equality and welfare rights for all.

Why not do away with capitalism, the Constitution, fast food, sex, drugs and rock and roll too?

I am not talking here about political ideology or even Christian or Jewish values. Can you dismiss your governement's obligation to intervene in socio-economic affairs?

You are addressing a person whose family were completely and utterly wiped out by socialists, first the Nazis then the Commies. I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I actually try to suceed via merit (that means work) and pay for things with honest earnings, not steal them from my neighbor who has worked harder and smarter than I. I dont believe in safety nets beyond personal and private charity- since they contribute to the problem not solve anything.

Obama has the guts to tackle a tough and fundamental issue neglected by former administartions and he deserves support.

Socialists, of every color, are thieves (thieves that graduate to dictators and mass murderers). Obama is a socialist...

[ranchcer]

You mean you are tired of your side of the continent being run by unelected technocrats that are dissolving your state sovereignty and 800 year old nation, and subsidizing those unwilling to work [hard esp] with those that do? Ok... I agree.

Yes, if you mean to say that amongst other thigs they unified criteria for a stronger Europe and in the same breath enhanced regional powers , self-identity and local culture. The deal? More economic stability through common goals and a single currency, more political influence to deal with world's issues. Ie the end the cold war, the dismember ment ofthe Soviet Union, the german reunification and recovery of Freedom and democracy for eastern Europe, not to forget a justice system that makes mass murderes accountable for their evil deeds.

Africa is poor because of handouts, not because there is a lack of them. Human nature is such that "free" anything means something 1. taken for granted, 2. is unearned and 3. self negating and habbit forming... like heroin that subverts the body's indogenous opiate neurotransmitters.
Africa is poor because of wars, corruption and plundering amid massive human rights violations and general indifference. I share your view that hands out and charity rob human beings of their dignity. It's a quick fix for political leverage and to soothe the world's conscience.

Why not do away with capitalism, the Constitution, fast food, sex, drugs and rock and roll too?

Constitution, sex and capitalism work for me. Fast food, drugs and rock n roll are not my first choice, but go ahead.
Should i stop paying retirement benefits because i intend to die young? Deny your pregnant wife maternity rights because she will be for me an economic burden and I hate kids anyway? Vote against infrastructure development because i decide that from now on, I' ll start walking? Oppose the garbage tax because I am on a diet and I recycle and burn my own trash? Etc...It is a package, I cannot take what I like and everybody else gets stu##ed.


You are addressing a person whose family were completely and utterly wiped out by socialists, first the Nazis then the Commies. I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I actually try to suceed via merit (that means work) and pay for things with honest earnings, not steal them from my neighbor who has worked harder and smarter than I. I dont believe in safety nets beyond personal and private charity- since they contribute to the problem not solve anything.
With all due respect, It is not about you, Bararallu but about the welfare of a workforce whose potential your country will need to build a better future for your children. And if it doesn't work back to the drawing board.

Socialists, of every color, are thieves (thieves that graduate to dictators and mass murderers). Obama is a socialist...

Whatever...You voted him in and he has a job to do.

[bararallu]

ranchcer,

I didnt mean to impress you with my gravitas on the subject, merely historically place my motivation and perspective on it. Yes I have issues with a system than works in theory a lot better that it has ever, and IMHO will ever, work in practice. I have personal revulsion at a system that is fraught with corruption and is replete with undemocratic practices. That elevates and empowers the state more than the clergy does the Church; that so easily rolls off the slippery slope into totalitarianism, and then thievery, slavery and mass murder.

Furthermore, just like virtually *any* global development is unsustainable neither is the standard of living that western countries enjoy without substantive work related sacrifices. The 30 hr work week and nonsense like it will not only bankrupt Europe but will have it gutted eventually by people who 1. attach to it like barnacles or 2. outright invade it and in the interim have no qualms running sweat shops with underage workers in order to stockpile bombs which they have no problems using on you or their own populations. Your EU voice in the UN completely notwithstanding. If you think the cold war was something of a misunderstanding or any foolishness like that I'm very sorry that you will be surprised consistently with current events.

On matters of actual substance, rather than playing Nostradamus, we have a whole lot of Europeans rebelling against the Brussels driven over lordship. On economic grounds, on national sovereignty grounds and frankly, from my perspective on experiential grounds. Half of Europe (the half that still procreates) do not mostly agree with you. They agree with me. Even in the great bastions of Western Civilization, France, UK and otherwise- the stomach, if you will, for further integration has indigestion. There is significant less interest in integration everywhere and is to some extent the process is beginning to seriously reverse. I'd say the worse the economy will get, the more de-integrated Europe will become.

I am glad you are rational and open eyed about what is happening in Africa. Understanding human psychology and appreciating certain (not all) differences in cultures is not only lips smacking, it demands actions. Nonstarter peace treaties, and absurd unsustainable economic irrationalities do not fundamentally contradict human nature. What they do is provide an escapist dream for a cadre of currently comfortable people. They cannot however permanently escape the human condition- which unless you are a theist, is brutal and unremitting competition (and cooperation to augment competition), demarcated by Mr Darwin over a century ago.