Home | yeah right.Originally posted by takeo
today israel is faced with the same problem many occupiing armies have in common.
Israel's only problem in ridding itself of the Palestinians is like others have said here that many countries around the world are oil slaves to the Arabs and have sabotaged Israel's self-defense forcing Israel to fight with 1 hand tied behind her back.
"ridding itself of the Palestinians "
By saying this it is clear that not only the terrorists are your target...
Maybe it is difficult to understand for you but many countries around the world don't support a war against a whole population and illegal occupation. Other countries that would dare to do the same as Israel today (Serbia for example, China, indonesia, ... ) would be faced by a lot more international resistance AND sanctions, and should be.
Wars happen between nations all over the world all the time.Originally posted by takeo
around the world don't support a war against a whole population and illegal occupation.
Israel and the Palestinians are at war now.
It's just that simple.
it's not that simple. Palestinians are occupied by israel, this occupation is illegal and resented by the population.
in the international context no single country can occupy another country or region without international sanctions, look at Iraq or Indonesia, or Morocco, only Israel can, because they have the support of the most powerfull nation in the world. However this support won't stop the resistance of the oppressed population ,that will continue as long as the oppression continues. This is not simply war against a state, this is war against an entire population.
1. Palestinians are not occupied by Israel for the simple reason that no Palestinian state exists or ever existed. There is no occupation.
2. Occupations are totally legal, legitimate and necessary until a pece treaty is concluded. For example the occupation of Germany by the Allies was perfectly legal, legitimate, necessary and righteous because it resulted from the German aggression.
Israeli troops are where they are for the same reason the Allied troops were (and still are) in Germany and US troops are in Japan - to ensure Israel's security and prevent aggression.
3. Border always change as a result of wars.
The borders of Germany were drastically changed with Germany losing as much as one third of its territory, with many millions of Germans expelled from the no longer German territories.
Today, no one is questioning the post-war borders in Europe. Russia even ended up in posession of territory separated from it by two (!) countries. That territory - Kaliningrad oblast', formerly East Prussia - had never before belonged to Russia, as are the the formerly Japanese Kuril islands.
I don't know why you are not preoccupied with the rigths of tens of millions of Germans to return to Russia, Poland, Czech Republik, Slovakia, Romania. It looks like the only thing you are interested in is the destruction of Israel. I am quite sure that the plight of Arabs is not of concern to you per se, otherwise you'd be very upset about the way the Arab regimes treat their people, and how they treat non-Arabs and non-Muslims.
I am not sure where this hatred of the Jewish State comes from. Apparently it is in the French air and in Communist papers.
The stench of both of them is overwhelming.
My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.
"1. Palestinians are not occupied by Israel for the simple reason that no Palestinian state exists or ever existed. There is no occupation. "
Well, that is just like deniing the moon is shining in the night. the whole world and the UN knows that those regions doesn't belong to israel and nowhere except in israel you will find a map where these territories are included in Israel. By deniing the inhabitants of this territory the right to vote or move freely even Israel itself doesn't see this regions as a part of Israel. there wasn't a palestinian state but that doesn't mean Israel had to right to occupy, for sure it wasn't upon Israel to decide what would happen with those territories but upon to the populations who inhabited this regions. They were part of Jordan, Egypt and Syria when israel attacked, these countries never ever recognised this territories to be part of israel.
Besides when the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 there wasn't an Israeli state as well, so this attack was legitimised according to you?
"2. Occupations are totally legal, legitimate and necessary until a pece treaty is concluded. For example the occupation of Germany by the Allies was perfectly legal, legitimate, necessary and righteous because it resulted from the German aggression. "
Which peace? it seems you don't want peace with the Palestinians, they waited already since 1967 but still no peace-deal has been concluded. After the occupation of germany only one year later the both german republics gained full independance and had the right to force the foreign troops to leave(they didn't do so because of the cold war). There is another difference with Germany, ISRAEL started the war in 1967, so Israel was the agressor and it was a pure war of conquest. this is absolutely illegal in international law and it is even more illegal to stay at those conquered territories.
"The borders of Germany were drastically changed with Germany losing as much as one third of its territory, with many millions of Germans expelled from the no longer German territories.
Today, no one is questioning the post-war borders in Europe. Russia even ended up in posession of territory separated from it by two (!) countries. That territory - Kaliningrad oblast', formerly East Prussia - had never before belonged to Russia, as are the the formerly Japanese Kuril islands.
I don't know why you are not preoccupied with the rigths of tens of millions of Germans to return to Russia, Poland, Czech Republik, Slovakia, Romania."
I am preoccupied with the rights of millions of germans (not tens of millions of people by the way) and today there are negotiations going on between Germany and Czech republic, poland and yougoslavia (the only three countries where Germans were expelled) for compensation of possible return. this etnic cleansing was similar to the one Israel conducted and has been condamned at that time by the "free western world".
About the borders: those borders were changed and recognised by the entire international community, that's why they are legitimised now. concerning israel no single country recognised the occupation and military conquest of westbank, Gaza and Eastern jerusalem. That's why this is not legitimised and why the borders didn't change. Israel also started the war in 1967, while germany started the wat in WWII. No single country can just start a war and conquer other territory without recognition of the rest of the world. Indonesia and Iraq tried it, and they lost. So will Israel, it will only take longer.
I am upset at human rights abuses in Arab countries, however in no single Arab country the citizens are treated worse than the Palestinians in the occupied territories, where they are not treated as human beings but as animals. Even the Kurds in Iraq hav more freedom the the Palestinians.
i have always had sympathy for oppressed, that's why i have sympathy for the palestinians and not for Israel.
ps: if i would have lived in the 50's i would have resented the frensh oppression in Algeria as well.
If I were a Palestinian growing up in such a camp I would be very angry with my own Palestinian leadership and with Palestinian terrorist groups who have brought all these troubles on their people.Originally posted by takeo
Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible.
I would be very angry that my fellow Arabs didn't negotiate like civilized people for a country for me. I would be very angry that they rejected the 1948 UN partition which would have provided for a peaceful country.
I would be very angry that my fellow Arabs who have gobs and gobs of oil money don't give their own people a penny and force them to live like dogs in the filthy streets of Gaza.
I'd be really pissed off that my corrupt Arab leaders have pocketed all the international money meant for palestinian education and public works. Instead it was tucked away in private bank acounts and used to buy weapons, not food for their fellow Arabs.
You can blame Israel all you like but the Arabs have brought all these troubles in themselves and need to take responsibility so they can start to fix their problems instead of living in denial. You know the first step to recovery is recognizing you have a problem. Someone needs to tell this to the Arabs.
the problem the Arabs in Gaza and westbank have is that they are oppressed by Israeli soldiers and that their land is occupied by israeli troops, without any legitimation. Even if there were terrorist attacks and Arabs didn't accept the partition in 1948 , it was still no reason for the continuing collective punishment and oppression of an entire population. Israel can't fool the world, the Israeli soldiers are there, not willing to talk to moderate palestinians and destroying everything the palestinians have, occupying them and denying them every right since 1967, all this can not be legitimised by nothing and Israel can change this situation every moment id there would be the will, the palestinians can not. The Palestinians are not held in camps, evicted from their houses, by their leaders but by Israel. If this is a policy to contain terrorism (which it isn't, it's imperialism) it is a very stupid one. One can't make peace by oppressing an entire people, sooner or later those will take revenge and have the right to do so. The "cure" is also worse than the disease, it is not because al-quaida attacked the us that the us now has the right to possess afghanistan as a colony.
I think you'd make a good social worker takeo. I suggest you return to the Gaza strip and listen to translated propaganda *GGGGGGGG*.
There's not one shed of evidence that Palestinians have the ability to live peacefully. What evidence can you provide that they would cease all terrorist activities if they were given everything they want???????????????? PROOF !!!!!!!!!! NONE !!!!!
You base all your assumptions on dreams, not reality.
They HATE jews period !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
there isn't any evidence as well that Israel has the ability to live in peace, since its independance it started two wars and couldn't make peace with its neighbours.
besides, if you don't give them a chance to live in peace with their own country you will never know and there will always be war in the Middle East for decades to come. This is the Sharon-option.
Peace with Egypt is still peace untill today, and even without a peace-treaty violence against Israel from Libanon diminished sharply. If Sharon would have been leader in those times we would now be witness of an all open war against all Israel's neighbours.
You have it all wrong sonny *** backwards.
Top 5 desperate lies heard on this board time and time again:
1. The Palestinians are oppressed. False.
The Palestinian have complete control over more than 90% of the territory partitioned by the UN. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy.
2. The Palestinians have no rights. False.
They have plenty of rights. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy.
3. Palestinian problems all come from Ariel Sharon. False.
Like NewsGuy and Negev have written: terrorism, Islamic extremism, illiteracy, ignorance, primitive culture and public corruption are at the root of Palestinian problems.
4. Arafat can't do anything against terrorism. False.
He has a good size army which has managed to squash all opposition to Arafat and can eliminate terrorism wihthin 24 hours (This is the very words of the Palestinian council - Fri. Jan. 25, 2002).
5. Palestinians are justified in killing innocent Israeli people. False.
There is no excuse for Islamic terorrism. All this Islamic propaganda about so-called oppression and all the other lies used by low-lifes to glorify suicide bombings are just garbage. As soon as the Saudi Prince who came to visit the site of the WTC in NY started with that trash, they tore up his $10 million check and threw him the **** out of the US. That's the way to treat those making excuses for the Islamic terrorists.
I say the ones doing PR for murderers are just as guilty as the murderers themselves.
Well, Takeo.
Your history of the ME comes straight from the worst sewers of the Arab propaganda. Again, even Pravda in the Soviet Union was more objective than you. Your kind of "history" can only be found in the most anti-Semitic sources - Fascist, Communist and Islamist.
The very short history of the Six-Day War is this:
On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. This blockade cut off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopped the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran.
In 1956, the United States gave Israel assurances that it recognized the Jewish State's right of access to the Straits of Tiran. In 1957, at the UN, 17 maritime powers declared that Israel had a right to transit the Strait. Moreover, the blockade violated the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958.(8)
President Johnson expressed the belief that the blockade was illegal and unsuccessfully tried to organize an international flotilla to test it. After the war, he acknowledged the closure of the Strait of Tiran was the casus belli (June 19, 1967):
If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Strait of Tiran would be closed. The right of innocent maritime passage must be preserved for all nations.(9)
Escalation
Nasser was fully aware of the pressure he was exerting to force Israel's hand. The day after the blockade was set up, he said defiantly: "The Jews threaten to make war. I reply: Welcome! We are ready for war."(10)
Nasser challenged Israel to fight almost daily. "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27.(11) The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."(12)
King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced:
The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.(13)
President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."(14) On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
The Arab rhetoric was matched by the mobilization of Arab forces. Approximately 250,000 troops (nearly half in Sinai), more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel.(15)
By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel had no choice but preemptive action. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage. On June 5, the order was given to attack Egypt.
The U.S. Position
The United States tried to prevent the war through negotiations, but it was not able to persuade Nasser or the other Arab states to cease their belligerent statements and actions. Still, right before the war, Johnson warned: "Israel will not be alone unless it decides to go alone."(16) Then, when the war began, the State Department announced: "Our position is neutral in thought, word and deed."(17)
Moreover, while the Arabs were falsely accusing the United States of airlifting supplies to Israel, Johnson imposed an arms embargo on the region (France, Israel's other main arms supplier also embargoed arms to Israel).
By contrast, the Soviets were supplying massive amounts of arms to the Arabs. Simultaneously, the armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts.(18)
Jerusalem Is Attacked
Prime Minister Levi Eshkol sent a message to King Hussein saying Israel would not attack Jordan unless he initiated hostilities. When Jordanian radar picked up a cluster of planes flying from Egypt to Israel, and the Egyptians convinced Hussein the planes were theirs, he then ordered the shelling of West Jerusalem. It turned out the planes were Israel's, and were returning from destroying the Egyptian air force on the ground.
After Jordan launched its attack on June 5, approximately 325,000 Palestinians living in the West Bank fled.(19) These were Jordanian citizens who moved from one part of what they considered their country to another, primarily to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a war.
Palestinian refugee who was an administrator in a UNRWA camp in Jericho said Arab politicians had spread rumors in the camp. "They said all the young people would be killed. People heard on the radio that this is not the end, only the beginning, so they think maybe it will be a long war and they want to be in Jordan."(20)
The Stunning Victory
After just six days of fighting, Israeli forces broke through the enemy lines and were in a position to march on Cairo, Damascus and Amman. A ceaseÂfire was invoked on June 10.
The victory came at a very high cost. In storming the Golan Heights, Israel suffered 115 dead-roughly the number of Americans killed during Operation Desert Storm. Altogether, Israel lost twice as many men — 777 dead and 2,586 wounded-in proportion to her total population as the U.S. lost in eight years of fighting in Vietnam.(23) Also, despite the incredible success of the air campaign, the Israeli Air Force lost 46 of its 200 fighters.(24)
By the end of the war, Israel had conquered enough territory to more than triple the size of the area it controlled, from 8,000 to 26,000 square miles. The victory enabled Israel to unify Jerusalem. Israeli forces had also captured the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank.
Israel now ruled more than three-quarters of a million Palestinians — most of whom were hostile to the government. Nevertheless, more than 9,000 Palestinian families were reunited in 1967. [B]Ultimately, more than 60,000 Palestinians were allowed to return.(25)[B]
Continue:
In November 1967, the United Nations Security Council adopted Resolution 242, which established a formula for Arab-Israeli peace whereby Israel would withdraw from territories occupied in the war in exchange for peace with its neighbors. This resolution has served as the basis for peace negotiations from that time on.
Israel's leaders fully expected to negotiate a peace agreement with their neighbors that would involve some territorial compromise. Therefore, instead of annexing the West Bank, a military administration was created. No occupation is pleasant for the inhabitants, but the Israeli authorities did try to minimize the impact on the population. Don Peretz, a frequent writer on the situation of Arabs in Israel and a sharp critic of the Israeli government, visited the West Bank shortly after the Israeli troops had taken over. He found they were trying to restore normal life and prevent any incidents that might encourage the Arabs to leave their homes.(26)
Except for the requirement that school texts in the territories be purged of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic language, the authorities tried not to interfere with the inhabitants. They did provide economic assistance; for example, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were moved from camps to new homes. This stimulated protests from Egypt, which had done nothing for the refugees when it controlled the area.
Arabs were given freedom of movement. They were allowed to travel to and from Jordan. In 1972, elections were held in the West Bank. Women and non-landowners, unable to participate under Jordanian rule, were now permitted to vote.
East Jerusalem Arabs were given the option of retaining Jordanian citizenship or acquiring Israeli citizenship. They were recognized as residents of united Jerusalem and given the right to vote and run for the city council. Also, Islamic holy places were put in the care of a Muslim Council. Despite the Temple Mount's significance in Jewish history, Jews were barred from conducting prayers there.
Notes
(1)Encyclopedia Americana Annual 1961, (NY: Americana Corporation, 1961), p. 387.
(2)Yehoshafat Harkabi, Arab Attitudes To Israel, (Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1972), p. 27.
(3)Howard Sachar, A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time, (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1979), p. 616.
(4)Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1985), pp. 10-11, 185.
(5)Netanel Lorch, One Long War, (Jerusalem: Keter, 1976), p. 110.
(6) Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 60.
(7)Ibid.
(8)United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea, (Geneva: UN Publications 1958), pp. 132-134.
(9)Yehuda Lukacs, Documents on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 1967-1983, (NY: Cambridge University Press, 1984), pp. 17-18; Abba Eban, Abba Eban, (NY: Random House, 1977), p. 358
(10)Eban, p. 330.
(11)Leibler, p. 60.
(12)Leibler, p. 18.
(13)Leibler, p. 60.
(14)Leibler, p. 18.
(15)Chaim Herzog, The Arab-Israeli Wars, (NY: Random House, 1982), p. 149.
(16)Lyndon B. Johnson, The Vantage Point: Perspectives of the Presidency 1963-1969, (NY: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1971), p. 293.
(17)AP, (June 5, 1967).
(18)Sachar, p. 629.
(19)Encyclopedia American Annual 1968, p. 366.
(20)George Gruen, "The Refugees of Arab-Israeli Conflict," (NY: American Jewish Committee, March 1969), p. 5.
(21)Gruen, p. 5.
(22)Gruen, p. 4.
(23)Katz, p. 3.
(24)Jerusalem Post, (4/23/99).
(25)Encyclopedia American Annual 1968, p. 366.
(26)Don Peretz, "Israel's New Dilemma," Middle East Journal, (Winter 1968), pp. 45-46..
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This speaks for itself. The Arab States were the aggressors, including Jordan, which was in posession of the territories in question. Even if one consider the current situation as "occupation", the occupation is comparable to the Aliied occupation of Germany and Japan, or more so, considering the Arab plans of genocide and total destruction of Israel.
The case is closed Takeo.
Let's go now to your "minor" but brazen lies.
[B]I am preoccupied with the rights of millions of germans (not tens of millions of people by the way) and today there are negotiations going on between Germany and Czech republic, poland and yougoslavia (the only three countries where Germans were expelled) for compensation of possible return. this etnic cleansing was similar to the one Israel conducted and has been condamned at that time by the "free western world".[B]
In reality this is what happened:
As far as the decisions with regard to the Expulsion of the Germans, those were taken as early as at the Teheran Conference, and confirmed, or actually expanded, at the Yalta Conference, and finally at the Potsdam Conference, where they were more or less articulated in ARTICLE 13 of the Potsdam Protocol.
In this ARTICLE 13 the allies agreed that it was necessary to transfer the German populations from what they referred to as Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. They did not mention the Donauschwaben, the areas in Yugoslavia, or the areas in Rumania, but in fact all of these countries were in the process of pushing the Germans out at the time.
And the reason for these expulsions from East Prussia, Rumania and from Silesia was ostensibly that Poland was to be given compensation. Compensation for the territory of eastern Poland that had been annexed by the Soviet Union pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact of 1939.
Now as you all know, the more than 12 million German expellees who survived, and who have come to the Federal Republic of Germany, have been integrated into the democracy that the Federal Republic of Germany is, and have contributed to the European reconstruction and to the so-called
Wirtschaftswunder, which was facilitated through the funds of the Marshall Plan.
More than 12 million, Takeo. Some very large cities, such as Koenigsberg, Breslau, Danzig were emptied out. They were totally German. I have been to Kaliningrad oblast myself and can personally witness it. Of all Germans in Koenigsberg there remain two: the two poets and friends, Goethe and Schiller, hand in hand - on a monument.
Over 12 million, Takeo. How many of their descendants live today? 20, 25 million?
I have not been able to find any signs of German return to their lands on the Web. Another brazen lie, Takeo. You keep ignoring every mention of East Prussia, btw, occupied by Russia. I know you don't like that topic.
You also said somewhere that when the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948, the State of Israel did not exist yet. What ignorance or what a lie! You know nothing TAkeo. You are totally, incredibly ignorant. THe Arab States attacked Israel on the day Israel declared independance. I have a copy of the Palestinian Post from taht day reporting this and the first bombing attack of Egyptian aircraft on Tel Aviv on the Day of Independence.
[B]I am upset at human rights abuses in Arab countries, however in no single Arab country the citizens are treated worse than the Palestinians in the occupied territories, where they are not treated as human beings but as animals. Even the Kurds in Iraq hav more freedom the the Palestinians.[B]
No you are not. According to Iraqi propaganda itself, more than a million of Iraqi children died after the Gulf War. Even if only half of that number did, this is Saddam's regime responsibility. Gassed Kurds, 20,000 Syrians massacred in one night, Sudanese Christians crucified, Egyptian Kopts killed - atrocities and tyranny all across the Arab world is of no interest to you. Why should they?
Firstly, you represent a tyrannical ideology - Communism - yourself.
Secondly, as every follower of totalitarian, Fascist-like ideology, you are a Judophobe. Judaism and tyranny are incomaptible. Judaism and Communism are incompatible. This is why you are an anti-Semite.
[B]i have always had sympathy for oppressed, that's why i have sympathy for the palestinians and not for Israel.[B]
As we have already discovered, you don't have any sympathy for the oppressed anywhere else and especially in Arab states - one giant Jurassic Park of an incredible mixtire of pre-Feudal triablism Feudalism, Fascism and Communism. It's all a lie.
Just remember this date, Herr Comrade Takeo:
Israel Independence Day is celebrated annually on 5 Iyar, the anniversary of the establishment of the State of Israel (May 14, 1948). The day preceding this celebration is devoted to the memory of those who gave their lives for the achievement of the country's independence and its continued existence.
This is Yom HaAtzmaut. To you, and every other red-brown Fascist, it is a day of mourning. To Jews it is a day of celebration.
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