Islam's half-hearted opposition to mass murder

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by reason


I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: *by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.*
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

All I am trying to say is that Islam like all other religions shouldnt be judged by its followers but by what it really stands for.Humans are always going to be bloody murderers , what ever religion they follow.I hope I made my point clear.

That still doesn't prove Hitler was a Christian. However, I do see your point.

[elke]

Originally posted by Dantheman


That still doesn't prove Hitler was a Christian. However, I do see your point.

Well, Osama's rantings don't really prove that he's a Muslim, either.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by elke


Well, Osama's rantings don't really prove that he's a Muslim, either.

OBL uses the Quaran to push his Ideals, he also claims that he is fighting for 'Allah'. But you are correct, that doesn't prove that he is a Muslim any more than Hitlers words prove that he was a Christian. However, OBL did claim publicly to be a Muslim, Hitler did not claim to be a Christian.

[elke]

The way I see it is this:

Islam is 1500 or so years old. It has produced a major civilization. It could neither survive as long as it has, nor produce what it produced, if it was as "evil" at its core as existence of Osama and Co. seems to suggest. Therefore, it's really not productive for us to focus on Islam per se in trying to discern what is really going on with the militant Islam.

In this context, I don't really see much relevance in proving or disproving that Hitler was a Christian. Hitler - maybe not; but Torquemada, Cortez, Tsar Nicholas I - and II, KKK members, and thousands upon thousands of other similar characters indeed were, as were numerous "Hitler's willing executioners". Truly, it has taken humankind thousands of years to just come to a tenuous consensus that killing for religion is morally wrong!

IMO, it is fairly obvious that the problem is not with any particular religion, but rather with something within the human psyche. Religion in this sense is nothing but a tool, a rallying cry for whatever philosophy is being peddled. It appeals to the inchoate - whether fear, wounded pride, or other human emotions, - and used as rationalization for them and the acts that the person(s) want to perpetrate.

No, Islam cannot be ignored in the current situation, because it's being used to commit murder. However, by blaming these atrocities on religion rather than on people who perpetrate them, we are absolving these individuals of their guilt.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by elke
The way I see it is this:


No, Islam cannot be ignored in the current situation, because it's being used to commit murder. However, by blaming these atrocities on religion rather than on people who perpetrate them, we are absolving these individuals of their guilt.

That's all fine and dandy, but why, if terrorism is so wrong in the eyes of most Muslims, has there not been a thunderous outcry of condemnation by the 'true' Muslim people? Why is it still tolerated by most Muslim leaders around the globe? or am I way off base?

[elke]

Originally posted by Dantheman
That's all fine and dandy, but why, if terrorism is so wrong in the eyes of most Muslims, has there not been a thunderous outcry of condemnation by the 'true' Muslim people? Why is it still tolerated by most Muslim leaders around the globe? or am I way off base?

No, you are not off base, IMO. That's actually the most baffling part of the whole thing, and a very good question to ask someone like Reason or Ayesha. Quite honestly, I haven't seen a satisfying explanation to similar questions, except that Ayesha has pointed out that she and her friends are quite active in this regard, but do not get adequate media coverage of their efforts.

However, I still believe that by concentrating on the religious precepts of Islam we are going off in a direction that will not produce desired results. For one thing, even if we decide that Islam is to blame - then what? Force-convert all 1.2 billion Muslims to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism? Is that logistically possible, let alone desirable? Can we, Christians, Jews, and Hindus change Islam to something it is not? I don't believe that we could do that either. Therefore, we must look to other avenues of action, which brings us back to where we started: namely, analyze the situation realistically and fight the violent manifestations of this ideology, while trying to attract normal people of all faiths to our side - something we cannot really do if we are antagonizing the normal Muslims by attacking their religion.

[Dantheman]

Originally posted by elke



However, I still believe that by concentrating on the religious precepts of Islam we are going off in a direction that will not produce desired results. For one thing, even if we decide that Islam is to blame - then what? Force-convert all 1.2 billion Muslims to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism? Is that logistically possible, let alone desirable? Can we, Christians, Jews, and Hindus change Islam to something it is not? I don't believe that we could do that either. Therefore, we must look to other avenues of action, which brings us back to where we started: namely, analyze the situation realistically and fight the violent manifestations of this ideology, while trying to attract normal people of all faiths to our side - something we cannot really do if we are antagonizing the normal Muslims by attacking their religion.

I'm not advocating we attemt to stifle or convert Muslims to another religion, that's not possible. I would never be persuaded to become a Muslim, so why would I think a Muslim would be any different?
Maybe I should have made myself clearer. I don't think most Muslims are terrorists, but every Muslim I've ever talked with, when Isreal was mentioned, would say the same thing. A true Muslim hates Jews and Israel. Period. That leads me to believe that Muslims are Racists. However, I believe in freedom of religion. Believe whatever you want to. Worship who you will. But if someone is going to act on a religious belief that they are to kill another in the name of their god, that presents a problem. Erradicate Islam? No. Erradicate terrorism? Absolutely. If that means that most of those affected are Muslims, so be it.

[elke]

Originally posted by Dantheman

...Erradicate Islam? No. Erradicate terrorism? Absolutely. If that means that most of those affected are Muslims, so be it.

Well, yes. I agree with you on this, completely. I actually have met Muslims who do not hate Israel or Jews, but not very many.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by elke


Well, yes. I agree with you on this, completely. I actually have met Muslims who do not hate Israel or Jews, but not very many.

if ul excuse my rude intrusion, even if a muslim/arab is in favour or accepts israel then they arent likely to be publicizing it-especially if they live in a so-called muslim country, as i imagine theyd be subject to extensive 'death fatwas'. when i go back to lebanon and complain that i cant visit my closest friend (who is a jewish convert and now lives in Netanya) because of this whole passport stamping thing i get shouted down about israel this and israel that. a lot of them dont have a clue what they're talking about, so when i correct their misconceptions i just get the dumbass answer of 'oh well whatever, we still have to fight them'. fight who? and for what? they follow like blind mice without questioning for one moment their plight. the fact that maybe we r going about the whole thing wrong does not occur to them. it's impossible. and i guess thats one of the reasons its hard to accept. (there's also the whole violent israeli incursion issue too but thats another point they raise).
having a problem with some of israel's policies is not wrong, but having a problem with israel is and i think a lot of the people (arabs and non arabs) allow the two to get mixed up. all they need is a little education, but there are those suicide bombing fanatics that just need hanging from their nuts, talking to them is worthless.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by reason
No need for witnesses because when you excersie your religion publicly every body is a witness. Example is going to a mosque to pray, everybody there now knows you are a muslim.You dont have to recite the phrase infront of witnesses because as i said it is between you and god, nobody else.

Hi reason
im sorry but u r wrong there u need 2-4 witnesses who are mature/sane and meet other criteria and the witness are of equal number of gender. no witnesses, then u r not officially a muslim - which u may need to prove in court etc if u have a complaint

[reason]

Originally posted by Dantheman


I'm not advocating we attemt to stifle or convert Muslims to another religion, that's not possible. I would never be persuaded to become a Muslim, so why would I think a Muslim would be any different?
Maybe I should have made myself clearer. I don't think most Muslims are terrorists, but every Muslim I've ever talked with, when Isreal was mentioned, would say the same thing. A true Muslim hates Jews and Israel. Period. That leads me to believe that Muslims are Racists. However, I believe in freedom of religion. Believe whatever you want to. Worship who you will. But if someone is going to act on a religious belief that they are to kill another in the name of their god, that presents a problem. Erradicate Islam? No. Erradicate terrorism? Absolutely. If that means that most of those affected are Muslims, so be it.

A true muslim dosnt hate Jews, or any body else for that matter.Yes you will find racist Muslims, who hate jews, but you will find jews who hate arabs and christians (KKK) who hate all non wasps.Its human nature not a religious doctrine.

Lets put Islam aside for now as it is irrelevant , and let me answer your question regarding the lack of outcry against terrorism from the many muslim "leaders".The sad fact is most muslims live in poor 3rd world countries, they live under a dictatorship of some kind and are searching for someone or something to blame for their backwardness. Here is the problem at its core, these people instead of blaming their goverments are tricked by the state owned media into blaming Israel this is ofcourse , to shift the blame away from them.For this reason no Arab goverment can condemn terrorism , because if they do then Israel will seize to be the reason for the misery and people will come to realize that their goverments and indeed themselves are the sole reason.People have been living a goverment lie for over 50 years now, even educated ones have become entagled.

Thus far, it seems like it a poltical problem not a religious one, so how does Islam come into it and where is the link?I dont have a definate answer for this but the creation of a Jewish state (although it didnt start it) definately accelerated the process because a Jewish state warranted an Islamic state .The failure of Pan-Arab nationalism propogated by Nasser is certainly another reason.Some people go as far back as the Crusades to find the link but Im not certain anyone knows for sure.

Misery/hatred overide religion, and eventhough it states clearly in Quran that terrorisim is not acceptable ,people will turn a blind eye.This seems to be a mind plague that has affects alot of muslims, and the cure is Democracy and freedom of speech.I hope I answered your question, I would be glad to answer any more .

[reason]

Originally posted by ayesha


Hi reason
im sorry but u r wrong there u need 2-4 witnesses who are mature/sane and meet other criteria and the witness are of equal number of gender. no witnesses, then u r not officially a muslim - which u may need to prove in court etc if u have a complaint

Im sure ayesha that you dont need any, there is a very small possiblity I could be wrong, but I believe you only need witnesses to prove it to the goverment, for legal purposes just live marriage.But not for god.

[IlyaFurman]

Thats crazy, think about it all religions compete with each other, in my opinion all religions are "racist" to the other religion, some more accepting than others at differnt times, but saying judaism is the most rascist or islam is the most racist is stupid cause they are all against each other, all reiligion is basically a GANG, and gang warfare, people claminig sides people clamining terriority, thats all it is.

[elke]

Reason and Ayesha, I can't really explain to you just what it means to me to have you here, discussing these subjects calmly and rationally, the way they should be discussed.

Your "intrusion" is not only not rude, but it is greatly appreciated! You guys are the hope for the future, and the reason to be optimistic about it. Keep up the great work!

[ayesha]

Originally posted by reason



Im sure ayesha that you dont need any, there is a very small possiblity I could be wrong, but I believe you only need witnesses to prove it to the goverment, for legal purposes just live marriage.But not for god.

reason for whatever legal purpose you may need it, how are you going to prove you are a muslim? and what if your case is thrown out because you cant prove how long you've been muslim etc etc.
No honestly reason, I am more than sure about this one. I have been present at several conversions, seen the same procedure practiced, and read about it when I studied Shari'a Law. I can see where you are coming from -from a religious point of view there is no need for witnesses, just you confirming your conviction to yourself and God. However, for a person from a non-muslim background to be recognised as a muslim, s/he must officially register their acceptance of islam so as to be recognised as a muslim in all aspects of life, such as civic and personal matters. this is especially important in non-muslim countries. i am aware of the case if an elderly, hospitalised muslim man who had embraced islam shortly before he passed away. nearly all his visitors during this period were muslims, but because his conversion was not recorded officially, his body was handed over to his immediate family who carried out the funeral procedures according to non islamic ways.