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Thread: The Grand Illusion

  1. #1
    ibrodsky
    Guest

    The Grand Illusion

    Western civilization has dominated the world largely based on its commitment to democracy and capitalism, and understanding that evil ideologies can be stopped through the threat -- and occasionally the use -- of force.

    But we have reached a new juncture in history.

    Since the end of World War II, we have believed that the best way to combat evil is with goodness. So we have established laws and even a sort of morality for modern warfare. We call those who violate these laws "war criminals."

    Until recently, we had good reason to believe that the stigma of "war crimes" would be enough to deter the forces of evil from crossing the line.

    But on 9/11/01 we discovered that there is an evil in our world that has been gathering strength for nearly a decade. It is an evil force that not only doesn't pay heed to the laws of warfare -- it revels in violating them.

    Yet the West continues to operate on the assumption that no battle is worth fighting unless it can be fought according to the rules.

    We are facing an enemy that operates in the shadows. We are facing an enemy that makes death and destruction an end in itself. We are facing an enemy that is happy to violate our laws of war and sees our unwillingness to do the same as our Achilles' heel.

    We in the U.S. have lulled ourselves to sleep. We did away with the draft. We developed the most advanced defense technology, and convinced ourselves that a lean, all-volunteer military force equipped with technology would be enough to win any future battle. We have convinced ourselves that we can fight wars with surgical precision.

    In a nutshell, we have fooled ourselves into believing that profound evil is extraordinarily rare and from here on out the bad guys can be contained through what looks more like a police action than the battle of Stalingrad.

    The terrorist attacks of the last few days are a wake up call. While the US Congress has been debating whether to give President Bush authorization to use military force against Iraq only, Islamist terrorists have struck in Finland, Israel, Chechnya, Indonesia, off the coast of Yemen, and very probably in the Washington, DC area.

    Our initial reaction, more often than not, is to not "rush to judgement." We don't want to believe that the DC area sniper is a terrorist. We don't want to believe that the anthrax attacks were a well-planned "second punch" following the WTC massacre. We didn't want to believe that a subsequent plane crash in New York was the work of terrorists. We didn't want to believe that a French ship off the coast of Yemen was blown up by terrorists, even though the captain of the ship reported immediately that his ship had been attacked by a small, explosive-laden boat.

    Our government insisted that the deadly assault on the El Al counter at LAX by an Egyptian national was a "personal" matter and not an act of terrorism.

    At some point, we must come to grips with reality. The 21st century equivalent of Nazism has emerged, and it has declared war on the West. Pretending it doesn't exist, refusing to identify who is behind it, and failing to muster the will to fight it in earnest will only result in more terror.

    Hopefully, Western civilization will come to understand what it's going to take to defeat this evil before the death toll climbs much higher.

    Islamist terrorists are bent on killing as many people as possible. 9/11/01 was just, in their sick minds, the warmup.

    Can anyone doubt that these monsters would shy away from killing millions of "infidels" if they could find a way to pull it off?

    The West is going to have to form an army of millions to crush every nation that harbors or otherwise supports terrorism. It's not clear that this can be done one country at a time. It's not clear that most such countries will reform themselves merely in response to threats and one or two isolated "examples." The enemy is not rational.

    And we will need to go further: we must put irresistible pressure on every country on earth to adopt and implement a policy of zero tolerance for terrorism and terrorists.

    In the U.S., we have drawn a line between Islamists who are resident aliens and Muslim citizens of the U.S. But what if the enemy refuses to observe our hopeful ideas about who is or is not likely to be a terrorist?

    We must immediately suspend all Islamic "charities" that send funds overseas. This is the only way we can be sure these funds are not channeled to terrorists.

    We must tell our Islamic community to either get serious about fighting Islamist terrorism or endure wartime suspension of rights.

    We must tell our Islamic "allies" overseas to either get serious about fighting Islamist terrorism or be known not as allies, but as enemies.

    Defeating fascist and genocidal Islamists is not going to be easy. It cannot be done with one hand tied behind our backs. It is going to require fierce determination, a willingness to answer their jihad with a "jihad" of our own, and most importantly the understanding that they are not going to be stopped by attempts to reason, implore, or shame them.

    Only brute force can put these brutes out of business.

  2. #2
    A-Palestinian
    Guest
    "We must tell our Islamic community to either get serious about fighting Islamist terrorism or endure wartime suspension of rights."


    I am curious: What would you have the State tell teenage scarf-totting muslim girls to do, lest they have their civil rights suspended?

    One you have answered that, kindly apply this question to ALL other non-criminal muslims residing in the US, with all professions and backgrounds.

  3. #3
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    One of my friend’s kids was into ultimate fighting a few years ago. In ultimate fighting there are no rules or laws everything goes and the ultimate goal is winning at any cost. The winner walks away with a grand and the loser ends up with a handshake. He had a buddy that was killed in such a fight a few years ago but the games continue (underground).

    Islamic Fundamentalists have no rules they can kill a newborn with impunity or a senior citizen. Killing is the name of the game and they do so effectively. If one was to make a growth curve showing the increase of Islamic Fundamentalism since the year 1900 it should be enough to shake everyone into reality.

    The reality is that Islamic Fundamentalists and their supporters have increased so dramatically that it’s frightening.

    What do they want?

    They want to dominate the world in the name of Allah.

    Where can they be found?

    Islamic Fundamentalists are everywhere in the world and they might have reached the point where they are unstoppable. I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that politicians are subjected to daily death threats from these bastards and to some degree it affects the way they do business.

    For many years I have been spreading the message that the very laws that are supposed to protect us from evil are the laws that will grind western civilization to an abrupt halt.

    The world is currently in a Crusade with Islam and most don’t even recognize it as such. Bush knows because when he mentioned Crusade almost a year ago it was a Freudian slip as far as I’m concerned.

    I’ve never stopped believing that American Airlines flight 587 that crashed in New York in November 2001 was due to sabotage and an act of terrorism. Until I’m shown evidence that convinces me otherwise my conviction stands, there was a lot to be gained by not classifying it as terrorism.

    As far as the Anthrax goes it sure seems to me that Islamic Fundamentalism was behind that. I suspect that the sniper in the Washington, DC area is somewhat connected to Islam but I’m not certain.

    What escape our memories quickly are all the thwarted attacks in the US, Israel and elsewhere in the world planned by Islamic Fundamentalists. If every attack post 9/11 would have been successful they would have resulted in 1,000’s of casualties.

    I for one don’t want to see my family depend on staying alive because law officials were lucky enough to discover a plot or apprehend these bastards in the middle of an act.

  4. #4
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by A-Palestinian
    "We must tell our Islamic community to either get serious about fighting Islamist terrorism or endure wartime suspension of rights."


    I am curious: What would you have the State tell teenage scarf-totting muslim girls to do, lest they have their civil rights suspended?

    One you have answered that, kindly apply this question to ALL other non-criminal muslims residing in the US, with all professions and backgrounds.
    I for one have never been subjected to search or seizure nor have any of my family members been subjected to violations of their civil rights.

    I have personally heard Moslems call for the death of Jews at a gathering of Islamic Radicals every individual at a gathering of a meeting like that should be considered criminals. I have read the same on news sites around the world and in the US. I suppose that falls under the category of free speech and it would violate their civil rights if it was disallowed.

    I don’t give a about their civil rights because as far as I’m concerned they lost those rights when they advocated violence.

    So yes if a scarf toting teenage girl or professional Muslim was at a gathering like that they should be subject to instant deportation. Eventually it’ll come to just that just wait and see. As far as I’m concerned it should be sooner than later!

  5. #5
    A-Palestinian
    Guest
    L@mplighter:

    "I don’t give a about their civil rights because as far as I’m concerned they lost those rights when they advocated violence "

    I had labelled you a Fascist a while ago, and you have proved it once again. "I dont care about their civil rights" is the first step one needs to take in order to go down that road.

    As you state, you would have people deported because of something they say, (not including threats).

    While threats are criminal and must be punished, "hate speech" is covered under the constitution, and subject to the first ammendment.

    ---------------

    In short, you wish the State to regulate what people can and cannot say. You would fit in perfectly in dictatorial states such as Saudi Arabia, and other Arab regimes of the sort, where free speech is stiffled according to their own whims and criteria.

    Restricting free speech is not what the West is all about. You are. You are a Fascist, as I had claimed a while ago.

    ---------------

    (You have also evaded the issue. My question concerened non-criminal muslims - not criminal ones. Your evasive tactics are dirtier than your stances.)

  6. #6
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Originally posted by A-Palestinian
    "We must tell our Islamic community to either get serious about fighting Islamist terrorism or endure wartime suspension of rights."


    I am curious: What would you have the State tell teenage scarf-totting muslim girls to do, lest they have their civil rights suspended?
    I see you have crawled back out from under your rock to dispense more dishonest, straw man arguments. No one said anything about singling out teenage girls (Palestinians single out teenage Israeli girls to blow up, though, as the barbarians did at the Dolphinarium disco in Tel Aviv).

    My point was that if the Islamic community does not do more to fight terrorism, then they can expect more surveillance, traffic stops, and searches. Most of this would be aimed at men 15 - 45 years of age, particulary those that attend militant mosques or have otherwise exhibited sympathy with jihad-genocide mass murderers.

    One you have answered that, kindly apply this question to ALL other non-criminal muslims residing in the US, with all professions and backgrounds.
    I repeat: unless the Islamic community does more to help us track down and arrest IslamiNazis they can expect more surveillance, traffic stops, and searches.

    You see, the right to live trumps all other rights. Except, however, in the eyes of Islamists -- people who subscribe to an evil ideology that peddles the idea to Muslims that Allah wants them to blow up as many non-Muslims as possible.

    If the terrorist death toll in the US surges, then we should consider internment camps for US Muslims. I would rather see people temporarily lose their rights than see other people permanently lose their lives.

    We are fighting an evil that is in many ways more profound than Nazi Germany. These evil cowards won't meet us on a battlefield. Instead, they stalk and kill or maim the defenseless.

    They must be stopped, and we must prepare to use all of the force and means necessary to do it.

  7. #7
    A-Palestinian
    Guest
    "unless the Islamic community does more to help us track down and arrest IslamiNazis they can expect more surveillance, traffic stops, and searches "

    Traffic stops with probable cause do not constitute a suspension of rights.

    Surveillance with probable cause does not constitute a suspension of rights.

    Search and Seizures with probable cause do not constitue a suspension of rights.

    However, thats not what you are talking about. You are talking about the suspension of civil liberties. The suspension of civil liberties is performing the above acts WITHOUT probable cause. Do NOT evade the issue .

    So, this means, arresting a man who happens to fast during Ramadan, or tapping into a woman's house because she adorns a head scarf, or stopping a car because it is green - (Gee, after all, green is the color associated with Islam right?...)

    In short, you want the State to perform all the above (and more) acts, without probable cause, to a certain group of its citizenry.

    Meaning, you want the Executive Branch to act, without first consulting the Judicial branch, which consults the Legistlative branch, which consults the Constitution, which summarily forbids such acts.

    Thus, you want the State to act contrary to the Constitution .

    ----------------------

    So you are Anti-constitutional.

    But wait! There's more:

    "unless the Islamic community does more to help us track down and arrest IslamiNazis ..."

    Islamic community means a group of muslims, encompasing all ages, both sexes, and all professions. You want this Islamic community to "help track down islamimazis." Explain, just how this tracking down would be done by THEM. Also explain, how a muslim teenager who does NOT know of any islaminazis (yet has to somehow rat them out) warrants his arrest, and the surveillance of his home, since he is obviously "not helping". And finally, explain why the citizenry , is now being given the job of the government . (Trackings, arrests, etc).

    All those actions, are what would result from Fascism. Sanctioning those actions, make you a Fascist, even if you do not realise it.

    --------------------------

    Furthermore, EVEN if we take your argument to heart, why stop with the Islamic communities? Why not arrest any other people who "arent helping"?
    Would a secular person found in a dunkin donuts be arrested, since he is not "helping the state" by dipping donuts in coffee instead of taping microphones to mosques? Under your twisted logic, yes, and we would have the tyranny of the state served with *thought police* out on the look out for evil people like him.

    This is tyranny. You are a tyrant.

    -------------------------

    "I see you have crawled back out from under your rock to dispense more dishonest, straw man arguments "

    Now you're just being rude.

    ------------------------

    So basically, you are a Facist, Anti-Constitutional, Rude, Tyrant.

    F.A.R.T for short.

    Congrats on your new name. You've certainly earned it. To help you write counter-arguments to mine, I would recommend Mein Kamph.

    Good luck.

    (P.S. Being unconstitional is not a good thing to be in times like these. You'd better watch it - Big Brother might be watching you - after all - our collective right to survival trumps all of yours!)

  8. #8
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by A-Palestinian


    Restricting free speech is not what the West is all about. You are. You are a Fascist, as I had claimed a while ago.

    ---------------

    (You have also evaded the issue. My question concerened non-criminal muslims - not criminal ones. Your evasive tactics are dirtier than your stances.)

    I wasn’t referring solely to the American Constitution and/or Laws.

    Free Speech should be restricted to the point where Imams cannot advocate hatred. If they do so they and their followers should be rounded up and deported immediately. No trial !


    That would mean that anyone in a mosque or similar gathering where hatred is encouraged would be deported. No trial!

  9. #9
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by A-Palestinian
    In short, you wish the State to regulate what people can and cannot say.
    That’s already well on the way in Holland and Denmark(Imams are going to have their mouths zipped) and it’ll spread.

  10. #10
    jcsd
    Guest
    Both Denmark and Holland have signed the EU convention on human rights, so free speech is guarenteed by the European courts in those two countries.

  11. #11
    A-Palestinian
    Guest
    Just because countries do it, does not make it ok. That is the equivalent of me saying, that its ok to gas Jews, because "they already do it in Nazi Germany." Preposterous reasoning.

    You want the state to practice censorship. That by itself is a MAJOR breach of liberty, and thus, a major breach of the first ammendment.

    Perhaps we should also ban:

    1) Neo-Nazi hate speech.
    2) Black panther hate speech.
    3) Communist "hate" speech towards capitalists.
    4) Capitalist "hate" speech towards communists.
    5) Hate speech towards the Neo-Nazis.
    6) Hate speech towards the retarded.
    7) Hate speech towards the criminals.
    8) Hate speech towards Al-Qaeda.


    Lets also ban hate speech directed at lab rats. And plants. Hell, lets ban all forms of hate - like flicking someone off. Or calling someone "stupid". Oh how bad. Lets also make it a crime to give someone the middle finger. Ban the phrase "I hate yougurt." Cant have hate speech.

    -------------

    LOL.

    I hate Fascists.

    Ohh..ooops....shouldn't have said that - cant say "hate"... is that the FBI at my door?...

    -------------

    L@mplighter, you are a Fascist, was one, and still are.
    You provide no logical counter arguments. Just rants. Rants rants rants.

    Good riddance.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    That depends on what everyone means. Take profiling for example. That's what we call curcumstantial evidence by another name. The legal system , yours, mine, most of them would grind to a halt w/o it since most crimes - Perry Mason and CSI notwithstanding are solved, prosecuted and convicted on circumstantial evidence.

    So it really goes to what outcome is derived. If circumstantial evidence yields no meaningful result then it is the classic case of driving while black.

    "Suspension of civil liberties" - now do you mean liberties or rights? There are differences and they are subtle. Rights are black letter. Liberties are derived from them. What do you actually mean when you say suspension? Do you mean suspension of the right? The liberty that derives from it or, do you mean actually a difference in how the protection of those rights and liberties is applied?

    For example the 4th ammendment can be bent today legally under 'just cause' or immediate or predicate event or - and this is very important, circumstantial evidence, e.g. profiling.

    Similarly there are exclusions, albeit very narrow ones most of the ammendments of the Bill of Rights. For example Habeus Corpus does not mean you can't arrest w/o charge - it means that you have to charge quickly and have demonstrable charges according to the code. Moreover you still can't pass a Bill of Attainder (look it up - a law or statute passed against a single person) but you craft an indictment to the specific case and, this is extremely important, a DA or AG can in fact arrest anyone for any legal reason as long as it can stick under the existing code.

    If what you are worried about is the 1A - specifically freedom of speech then look at the baseline case in the 20th C. US v. Debs. The protection is political speech and not unlimited speech w/o exclusion. Now there are later cases that refine that but the crux of the issue is political speech in the context of social order - which is I suppose what the implied case is here. So a reference could be made here to the political content of religious or other speech. A speaker who exhorts a crowd to overthrow the government in a religious setting or for religious reasons is still making a political speech. It probably falls under US v Debs.

  13. #13
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by jcsd
    Both Denmark and Holland have signed the EU convention on human rights, so free speech is guarenteed by the European courts in those two countries.


    Your Imams are going to have their mouths zipped! Dutch and Danish Law will prevail and it’ll shut their mouths or they will be deported.

  14. #14
    jcsd
    Guest
    My relgion is lapsed C of E. But seriously, the European Convention on Human Rights actually holds presedent over national laws (any national laws that are in conflict with it are repeled), however I think if they are violating other articles of the ECHR then they can be gagged (i.e violation on racial discrimnation, privacy etc.).
    Last edited by jcsd; 10-14-2002 at 05:04 AM.

  15. #15
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by A-Palestinian
    Just because countries do it, does not make it ok. That is the equivalent of me saying, that its ok to gas Jews, because "they already do it in Nazi Germany." Preposterous reasoning.

    You want the state to practice censorship. That by itself is a MAJOR breach of liberty, and thus, a major breach of the first ammendment.

    Perhaps we should also ban:

    1) Neo-Nazi hate speech.
    2) Black panther hate speech.
    3) Communist "hate" speech towards capitalists.
    4) Capitalist "hate" speech towards communists.
    5) Hate speech towards the Neo-Nazis.
    6) Hate speech towards the retarded.
    7) Hate speech towards the criminals.
    8) Hate speech towards Al-Qaeda.


    Lets also ban hate speech directed at lab rats. And plants. Hell, lets ban all forms of hate - like flicking someone off. Or calling someone "stupid". Oh how bad. Lets also make it a crime to give someone the middle finger. Ban the phrase "I hate yougurt." Cant have hate speech.

    -------------

    LOL.

    I hate Fascists.

    Ohh..ooops....shouldn't have said that - cant say "hate"... is that the FBI at my door?...

    -------------

    L@mplighter, you are a Fascist, was one, and still are.
    You provide no logical counter arguments. Just rants. Rants rants rants.

    Good riddance.

    Have you fun while it lasts! As far as I’m concerned something has been set in motion because of 9/11. Screw around and hide behind your civil liberties and feel safe.

    The day has already come where Muslims have to look over your shoulders to see if the law is following you. If you think that you can pollute western society with your Islamic Fundamentalism you’re mistaken.

    Laws aren’t etched in stone and are subject to change and they will change.

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