Arafat's successors.

[takeo]

"Marwan Barghouti
One of the most popular figures of the current Palestinian uprising, Barghouti is a senior Fatah leader in the West Bank. Schooled in Hebrew during his time in Israeli jails, Barghouti was a field Fatah leader during the first intifada of 1987, when he was deported by Israel. Barghouti, 42, has struck a chord with ordinary Palestinians. The son of a West Bank farmer, he has appeared frequently at demonstrations, funerals and in the Arab press. Israel has asked that the Palestinian Authority extradite Barghouti for questioning in connection with a number of West Bank shootings. Barghouti has denied accusations that he participates in military operations.


nr. 2: popular in peace-minded Israel and the US:

"Mahmoud Abbas
Also known as Abu Mazen, Abbas was the PLO man who signed the 1993 peace accord with Israel. He was an architect of the deal and his long contacts with Israeli leftists won him a reputation as a PLO dove. He commands respect among Palestinian officials, in United States, Israel and the Arab world as the brains behind the PLO. But he lacks Arafat's charisma and has little credibility among ordinary Palestinians. Some consider him too conciliatory toward Israel. Abbas, 66, was forced to flee to Syria with his family when Israel was created in 1948. He joined Arafat's Fatah faction in 1965. A member since 1980 of the PLO's Executive Committee, its top body, he was elected the Committee's secretary general in 1996, informally confirming his position as Arafat's deputy. "

nr.3:"Jabril Rajoub
The head of the Preventive Security Service in the West Bank, Rajoub leads one of the most powerful of the Palestinian Authority's various security agencies and has several thousand officers under his command. Rajoub, 48, earned his credentials on the Palestinian street after spending years in Israeli jails, where he also learned to speak Hebrew. He was later deported to Lebanon and then followed the PLO leadership into exile in Tunisia. From Tunis, he helped coordinate the first Palestinian intifada, or uprising, against Israeli occupation, beginning in 1987. Rajoub has been a negotiator on security issues with the Israelis under U.S. mediation. Known for his gravelly voice and dour expression, he has been frequently interviewed by Israeli media since the start of the latest Palestinian uprising."

It is clear that none of those most moderate palestinian leaders will agree with peace and security for Israel without an end to occupation and a good solution for the refugee-question. The sooner the Israeli establishment learns this, the better.
With bombing the PA (and punishing the moderate palestinians who want a just deal with Israel) you will earn nothing but more anger, more support for the terrorists and more violence, it is boring to repeat this message again and again, but some people in Israel and the US are still blind for reality. They will have to learn the hard way.
However people from the right-wing in Israel and Jewish America, to which most of you belong, claim to have other solutions to end this conflict, solutions that don't need any compromise with the palestinians but can provide peace. i would really like to know WHAT this solutions look like. Genocide of all Palestinians (seems the most effective but most dangerous for israel), eviction of all Palestinians, "separation" (does this mean putting all palestinians in big camps, does it mean dismantling the jewish settlements or how do you see this?) ???

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo

It is clear that none of those most moderate palestinian leaders will agree with peace and security for Israel without an end to occupation and a good solution for the refugee-question. The sooner the Israeli establishment learns this, the better.

...


"separation" (does this mean putting all palestinians in big camps, does it mean dismantling the jewish settlements or how do you see this?) ???

The reason that there are no true moderate Palestinian political candidates is because Arafat murdered them all so he would not have opposition.

Actually, any of those you mentioned would possibly be a lot better than Arafat because they might want to hang on to their power and get rid of the other terrorists in a power struggle. if they don't work out, then they will need to be eliminated and replaced also, maybe by someone like Sari Nusseibah, who is the only semi-sane Palestinian I've ever heard voice views.

If the Palestinians cannot come up with a leadership that can live peacefully, among civilized people, then they will need to remain without a leader until the next generation can produce a viable alternative.

[cerulean]

Interesting editorial by Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2002Feb7.html

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
Interesting editorial by Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2002Feb7.html

Excellent article.

[takeo]

OK, i will not be able to respond to this post but whatever.
If Arafat will be killed or destroyed by Israel, the leaders you and krauthammer mentioned will not take over, as they have far less autority than Hamas or PFLP and would never be as powerfull in a scenario without Arafat. the only reason why they are powerfull is because they have a high position in the PA and in Arafat's esteem. their popular support however is pretty low and besides they would never cooperate with the murderers of Arafat. No doubt if Arafat disappears, the radicals will take over, and if Arafat will be murdered or evicted by Israel than this will mean a full war against Israel, not only by all palestinians without exception, but possibly as well by the neighbouring countries. For Europe and the UN it would mean to cut all political and economical ties to Israel, as it would be a state that murdered a respected and represented leader of a people, almost a president of a souvereign state.
and what next? you seem to prefere a status-quo or a fractionment of the Palestinian autority, well in reality this will mean that the radicals will take over entirely and a new full scale Intifadeh will appear as in the 80's, this time WITH guns and rockets instead of stones. You can make peace separately with some local factions but which leader will have the autority to enforce a new peace? besides very doubtfull any palestinian will negotiate without a full solution for the entire problem. Nobody will want to negociate with the murderers of arafat.
in reality it will mean full-scale war and Israel will sink further into the swamp of war without any hope of a peacefull solution. Finally it will have to withraw without a peace-treaty as it did in Libanon. i think if israel's leaders are wise, they should draw a deal with arafat before he dies. After his death (he's an old and sick man, won't live so long anymore) and without a peace-treaty most probably the radicals will become stronger as they have more popular support and the PA a lot weaker. No single palestinian will want to be the local supervisor to make the Israeli occupation easier. If that is your hope of an ideal palestinian leader, forget it. He is the man to have enough autority to make any compromise legitimate for the palestinians (as on the refugees, not all of them, or some parts of eastern Jerusalem could stay part of israel etc., and the biggest compromise at all, the parts of palestine conquered before 1967 would stay a part of israel), with other leaders, as with Hesbollah in Libanon, it will be much harder to negotiate as their lack of autority would force them to have the support of the radicals.

[takeo]

OK, now i will leave this Arabised degenerated anti-semitic country.
hasta la vista

[L@mplighterM]

Is there an echo in here or is that you takeo/Just/hass?

[takeo]

It is takeo but you won't have much more problems with me as I'm gone.
starting tomorrow you can discuss further which way would be the best to eliminate the palestinian people without my disturbing views. However i hope Mrsceptic, justsad or other dissidents who haven't lost reason that may appear will continue posting to confront you and the people who read this with your own absurdities.

[L@mplighterM]

Is Just leaving too?

[takeo]

ask him

[NewsGuy]

"No doubt if Arafat disappears, the radicals will take over, and if Arafat will be murdered or evicted by Israel than this will mean a full war against Israel"

IMHO, we are already seeing a full-scale war of terrorism against Israeli civilians, launched by Arab mass murderers, with the full support of the overwhelming majority of the Aran population.

The perceived threat that some other, worse, Palestinian leadership may arise, is no reason to stop progress by getting rid of Arafat, who we already know is a complete road-block to peace. That;s why he needs to be removed and his entire terrorist apparatus needs to be dismantled by military means.


"You can make peace separately with some local factions but which leader will have the autority to enforce a new peace?"

No reason to worry about that. As in all Arab territories, a new leadership will come to power by brute force and will bend the will of the people quickly. If the new dictatorship sees peace as a good strategy to maintain its power, then there will be no "discipline" problems among the Palestinians.


"Nobody will want to negociate with the murderers of arafat."

The only thing the new Palestinain leadership will be interested in, is maintaining pwer. Arafat will be nothing more than a distant and unpleasant memory to most Palestinians, as they suffered tremendously during his miserable tenure.

"...as with Hesbollah in Libanon, it will be much harder to negotiate as their lack of autority would force them to have the support of the radicals."

Actually, there was never a problem with authority in Lebanon. The Hizbullah terrorists are puppets of the Iran and Syria, who have made a strategic decision to support Islamic terrorism against Israel and against the entire Western world.

[takeo]

ok, i won't spoil my vacation but just a quick answer.




"The perceived threat that some other, worse, Palestinian leadership may arise, is no reason to stop progress by getting rid of Arafat, who we already know is a complete road-block to peace. That;s why he needs to be removed and his entire terrorist apparatus needs to be dismantled by military means. "

Arafat isn't a road-block to peace, Sharon is!



"No reason to worry about that. As in all Arab territories, a new leadership will come to power by brute force and will bend the will of the people quickly. If the new dictatorship sees peace as a good strategy to maintain its power, then there will be no "discipline" problems among the Palestinians. "

OK, but than this leader will have to rise to power first, and without any army or popular support that won't happen. And nobody will do business with the murderers of Arafat, if you kill him I can assure you a new leader will arise from the most radical section of the palestinian society. Arafat is the only voice still believing in peace with Israel in the palestinian society(of course not unconditionnally) , if you destroy that voice nothing but hate will be left. The first to do business with Israel after it disposed Arafat would end up with a bullet in his head quicker than he can return home, as said minister of education Hanan Ashrawi.
in fact Arafat said many times that he wanted to resume negotiations, Sharon always refused and used terror and violence, which provoked palestinian reactions and undermined the democratically elected leader (yes, elected! but i guess democracy has never been an issue for Israel). Who is the real terrorist?



There was never a problem with hesbollah, but i mean if you destroy (in both senses!) all ties and compromises to the moderates as Israel did in Libanon and is doing again in Palestine than the radicals will be the only ones who will remain. And after it becomes clear that nobody will win the war, a peacefull solution won't be possible anymore.

[takeo]

what were the latest devellopments today?

[watcher]

No worries here about araflat, those "palestinians" will always have a leader whether arafault or any of the others in the countries they came from... even if the label "palestine" is lifted off Israel and sent back the relatives who sent these "palestinians" to Israel by order of the roman empire will get upset and the terrorism will continue towards Israel until they realize it's very wrong to keep messing with the innocent.

Hopefully they will realize their wrongdoings before it's too late for them. Such a demise is never desired by Israel but if most "palestinians" and others continue their path to their own destruction they have no one to blame but themselves.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
what were the latest devellopments today?

Today, there is a major Israeli defensive action underway against Palestinian military targets, in retaliation for the murder of 5 Israeli women over the weekend and the launching of Hamas and PA-missiles into Israel.

For the first time, I've seen the Israeli DM, Fuad, say that there will be reprecussions for the Palestinian population if more missiles are shot into Israel.