Israeli vs American pluralism

[elke]

Well, I believe that it is already being done: there are clubs in the US that do not accept African Americans or Jews.

I worked for a company owned and operated by the Episcopal Church. There was an explicit statement in their Guidelines that the company reserves the right to limit certain positions to Episcopalians. From the outside, it seems very discriminatory; but you had to have worked there in order to understand that this is not really an unreasonable requirement.

In any democratic, multicultural society, a balance of needs of the various individuals needs to be achieved. This balance, for lack of better criterion, has to be based on the will of the majority, IMO. Therefore, if the majority of the Israelis believe that discrimination is a more dangerous foe than infringement of the rights to Free Association, it's a valid choice. In the US the situation is different.

In addition, these things work both ways: if the gentleman in question believes that the Boy Scouts rules are discriminatory, and there are adequate numbers of people who believe likewise, then he is free to start his own group, which will have the attributes of boy scouts, without the requirements that he finds offensive.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Which democracies fell?

The Weimar republic of Germany between the two world wars.

[Mediocrates]

Well ok i'll give you that one. Really more of a rump state that never really achieved any sort of stability or normalcy. It was teetering anyhow and Hitler and probably a half dozen others could have toppled it.

[ibrodsky]

sharonbn,

I don't know how to make it any plainer. In a free society people are free to associate with whom they wish to associate.

Organizations such as the Boy Scouts are created by citizens who wish to promote specific values and interests. Embracing the idea that there is a higher authority is perfectly legitimate and is not a threat to anyone. As Elke pointed out, other citizens are free to form similar organizations with different values and interests.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. However, perhaps I could better understand your position and/or you could better understand mine based on your answers to the following questions:

What if someone established the Christian Boy Scouts? Or the Jewish Boy Scouts? Do you believe such organizations should be forced to accept individuals from other religions?

If yes, why? Is this not a small step from banning religious congregations?

If no, then why would you object to a similar but more inclusive organization?

[sharonbn]

Christian Boy Scouts or Jewish Boy Scouts may accept only members of their faith.

Perhaps if "the" boy scouts called themselves "the heterosexual monothaistic boy scouts" then the problem would go away. I am guessing if they did call themselves by that name then Darrell Lambert (the atheist boy from the article) would not enlist as member in the first place. The universality and generality of the name misled him as well as myself.

Perhaps the misunderstanding lies in my comparison with American and Israeli boy scouts. There are other youth organizations in Israel (for example, Bnei Akiva is a national orthodox youth organization, I doubt if they accept Israeli non-Jews), however, the Israeli boy scouts (a branch of the int'l movement) prides itself on the acceptance of young men and women of all faiths, lifestyles and ethinc backgrounds.

It is my personal belief that the Israeli organization serves better as an educational example of tolerance, acceptance and pluralism.

[L@mplighterM]

What purpose does it serve to argue about boy scouts? I’m sure the guy can continue being a scout if he admits he’s alive. Atheists are alive aren’t they and they certainly aren’t a byproduct of Immaculate Conception.

Don’t you think that you owe your existence to some biological force like Mother Nature or at least something similar?

[sharonbn]

L@mplighterM,
1) My personal belief is not the issue here.
2) The Atheist boy scout was NOT required to admit he's alive. He was required to state his belief in something he does not believe exists.
Atheists do not believe they "owe" their existence to anyone (or anything) else other than their parents.

[elke]

It seems to me that the argument here is about whether Boy Scouts can say that they are promoting "universal values", when they do not accept certain types of individuals. I think this is a valid argument, but I am not sure that this is the way they really describe themselves.

From the Boy Scouts of America website:
http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=fs

Specifically, the BSA endeavors to develop American citizens who are physically, mentally, and emotionally fit; have a high degree of self-reliance as evidenced in such qualities as initiative, courage, and resourcefulness; have personal values based on religious concepts; have the desire and skills to help others; understand the principles of the American social, economic, and governmental systems; are knowledgeable about and take pride in their American heritage and understand our nation's role in the world

(emphasis mine).

Given this line of thought, their disavowal of this gentleman is legitimate. Keep in mind that this is Boy Scouts of America we are talking about here: the situation may be different elsewhere.

[sharonbn]

they should include in the text
"of heterosexual orientation"

[sharonbn]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/D...ist021105.html

SEATTLE, Nov. 5 — Darrell Lambert, a 19-year-old Eagle Scout, says he's been dismissed from the Boy Scouts for being an atheist.

Darrell Lambert: "Am I bitter? No. Disappointed? Yeah. We're in the 21st century. Our country was founded on religious freedom, and the Boy Scouts of America are still discriminating."

[jcsd]

When I was in the cub-scouts, "Satanists" would of described our pack very well.

[Gibran]

Hi sharonbn,

they should include in the text
"of heterosexual orientation"

I think this is implied by the "have personal values based on religious concepts" clause quoted above.

Originally posted by sharonbn
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/D...ist021105.html

SEATTLE, Nov. 5 — Darrell Lambert, a 19-year-old Eagle Scout, says he's been dismissed from the Boy Scouts for being an atheist.

Darrell Lambert: "Am I bitter? No. Disappointed? Yeah. We're in the 21st century. Our country was founded on religious freedom, and the Boy Scouts of America are still discriminating."

Not sure how much you agree with this quote -- I assume there's an affinity there -- but this young man seems to be mistaken about the "of America" part. It's as if this label implies something official about the organization, like it's a branch of the US Government. Now, *that* situation would be problematic, but it ain't the case. It's a private organization.

Is this distinction meaningful to you?

Peace,

Gibran

[sharonbn]

Hello Gibran,
welcome to IsraelForum.

please see this post of mine. it represents my view of the issue.

Sharonbn

[Gibran]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Hello Gibran,
welcome to IsraelForum.

please see this post of mine. it represents my view of the issue.

Sharonbn

Hi sharonbn,

Aren't you supposed to call me nasty names now? (inside "ummah.com" joke)

Thanks for the link. Will read.

So much for jumping in to the conversation in the middle.

Note to self: do your homework first.

Peace,

Gibran

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by jcsd
When I was in the cub-scouts, "Satanists" would of described our pack very well.

Palestinians and their supporters have a wonderful ability to portray things the opposite of how they really are.