Are you in favor of Civil Marriages in Israel?

[Aliyah1995]

Moderators, beware, I am once again I am experiencing the "title bug". Anyhow, this is a topic that constantly comes up in Israel and has implications for not just Israel, but for Jews all over the world.

Not long ago, we had a debate on which conversions to Judaism should be accepted as valid in Israel (specifically should non-Orthodox conversions be accepted as valid). Why do I bring this up? Because one of the biggest bones of contention when it comes to conversion is marriage. Which converts will be considered "kosher" enough to marry a Jew who is a Jew according to halacha (no matter how little he/she practices Judaism)?

A good way to reduce friction between the non-Orthodox and Orthodox movements (although it wouldn't reduce the friction 100%; there would still be an ego factor from both sides), would be to allow civil marriages in Israel. That way the Orthodox would not have to "lower the bar" so to speak when it comes to accepting converts, as they would not have to accept converts they do not consider "kosher" enough for marriages that will be conducted by the Rabbinate. On the other hand, the non-Orthodox movements would be able to conduct their own marriages. This is pretty much how Jewry in America operates and, I suspect, Jewry in the rest of the western world as well. The Orthodox Rabbinate in the diaspora only officiates in marriages where both parties are "kosher enough" in their eyes, so it would be the same in Israel.

Another advantage of civil marriage in Israel would be less contempt toward the religious from the less observant. Religious coercion has never convinced Jews to become more observant (at least not from what I have seen). So, this might also be another step towards goodwill and a bridge towards reconciliation between the observant and less observant Jews in Israel.

Of course (as I'm sure you've all been anticipating), there are disadvantages to civil marriage in Israel. I don't think I need to spell out how civil marriage could threaten Israel as a Jewish state if anybody could just marry anybody. While it is true that a Jew and non-Jew could fly to Cyprus, have a quick ceremony, and return to live in Israel as a recognized married couple, there is still a difference between Israel FORMALLY recognizing and endorsing intermarriage WITHIN Israel itself versus making it known that anyone who wants to intermarry will have to leave the country to do so.

Personally, I am definitely in favor of civil marriage between two parties who are not halachically Jewish. They have a right to marry and I don't think it is right that they can't. However, I am not sure if I am ready to cross the line and be in favor of civil marriage between a Jew (halachic) and a non-Jew.

I open the floor to friendly debate....:-)

[curlyg]

Yes

[Aliyah1995]

Yes

Which yes? There are two

[curlyg]

Civil marriages between all citizens.

[Backwards]

I'm with curlyg. Are non-Jewish marriages really a demographic threat? How many non-Jews live in Israel right now vs. how many would come and live here if the marriage rules were laxed?

[Aliyah1995]

I'm with curlyg. Are non-Jewish marriages really a demographic threat? How many non-Jews live in Israel right now vs. how many would come and live here if the marriage rules were laxed?

About 20-25% of the population in Israel is Arab. There are no small number of foreign workers (many of whose kids are born in Israel). And, there are many Olim from the FSU who are not halachically Jewish. I don't think the threat to the Jewish character of Israel that intermarriage in Israel would pose by all of the above can just be brushed off.

This is not to say that civil marriages in Israel (to different extents) would not have their advantages, as I have noted in my post, but there are disadvantages as well. Like everything else in Israel, it is not so simple as black and white.

At any rate, I welcome friendly debate, otherwise I would not have started this thread, so I can respect yours and curlyg's opinions. I hope more people will post.

[curlyg]

The state doesn't really have the right to impose a Jewish identity on its citizens. People aren't babies who need to have their marriage choices limited and controlled by the government. The number of "mixed" couples is quite small, and the number of those which seek to officially marry, I imagine, is smaller yet. The way the situation stands now you have hundreds of thousands of people unable to be married. That's just absurd.

There are many things which could help Israel's Jewish character. The Knesset could pass legislation requiring all Jews to have at least 4 children, and restricting the number Arabs can have. Doesn't mean it should be done. This is in the realm of private relationships, it shouldn't be open to the government to limit citizens' choice of life partners - of any race, religion or gender.

[Aliyah1995]

Curlyg-

The state doesn't really have the right to impose a Jewish identity on its citizens. People aren't babies who need to have their marriage choices limited and controlled by the government. The number of "mixed" couples is quite small, and the number of those which seek to officially marry, I imagine, is smaller yet. The way the situation stands now you have hundreds of thousands of people unable to be married. That's just absurd.

In an ideal world or in a state in which we don't care about it remaining this identity or that identity, this would be true. However, Israel is not going to remain a Jewish state just because we wish it to. It is going to take maintenance to do that. The number of "mixed" couples is not negligible and with the number of foreign workers increasing, this can become a demographic threat (no less than letting in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian "refugees" would be). As far as the hundreds of thousands of people unable to be married, I am assuming you are talking about the 300,000 or so non-Jewish Olim from the FSU. That is why I am in favor of civil marriages between them. Just not sure I am in favor of civil marriages between EVERYBODY in Israel.

There are many things which could help Israel's Jewish character. The Knesset could pass legislation requiring all Jews to have at least 4 children, and restricting the number Arabs can have. Doesn't mean it should be done. This is in the realm of private relationships, it shouldn't be open to the government to limit citizens' choice of life partners - of any race, religion or gender.

Actually, there is talk about cutting or doing away with child allowances for families that don't have at least one working spouse and in which at least one of the spouses haven't done the army or national service. In a defacto way, this is aimed at Haredim and Arabs.

At any rate, regarding your last sentence, if Israel was a Middle Eastern version of America or Australia I would agree with you. As long as we want to remain a Jewish State, some sacrifices will have to be made.

[curlyg]

In an ideal world or in a state in which we don't care about it remaining this identity or that identity, this would be true. However, Israel is not going to remain a Jewish state just because we wish it to. It is going to take maintenance to do that. The number of "mixed" couples is not negligible and with the number of foreign workers increasing, this can become a demographic threat (no less than letting in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian "refugees" would be)

Then the solution is to stop bringing foreign workers to the country, not to deny people the recognition of what is by any account a basic right. There are ways of maintaining a Jewish state that do not involve such crude obstruction of peoples' lives - through education, through economic incentivisation, and so on. But if there is a person who says "my Jewish identity be damned, I love Yusuf", it's not really the government's place to tell her (or even him) otherwise.

As far as the hundreds of thousands of people unable to be married, I am assuming you are talking about the 300,000 or so non-Jewish Olim from the FSU. That is why I am in favor of civil marriages between them. Just not sure I am in favor of civil marriages between EVERYBODY in Israel.

Doesn't this whole system seem a little antiquated to you? Jews can only marry Jews, Christians can only marry Christians, Muslims can only marry Muslims, Druze can only marry Druze, and those without a religious classification (i.e. Russians) may marry others without a religious classification. What if a liberal Druze wants to marry a liberal Muslim? Tough luck. What if an atheist Jew doesn't give a damn about the Rabbinate and wants to marry a Russian? Too bad.

Actually, there is talk about cutting or doing away with child allowances for families that don't have at least one working spouse and in which at least one of the spouses haven't done the army or national service. In a defacto way, this is aimed at Haredim and Arabs.

This is a different story entirely. It's economic incentivisation - every country does it to achieve various economic goals. It makes a lot of sense. But ultimately the choice rests with the individuals - they aren't being forced to work, nor are they being forced to do national service.

Here, people are simply being told they're not allowed to marry.

At any rate, regarding your last sentence, if Israel was a Middle Eastern version of America or Australia I would agree with you. As long as we want to remain a Jewish State, some sacrifices will have to be made.

We can justify a lot of things if the goal is simply to keep Israel a Jewish state without regard for the rights and freedom of individuals. Marriage is really something so fundamental that excessive interference by the state is out of place.

[Aliyah1995]

Curlyg-

I am about to log out for Shabbat, so I don't have time to respond to your last post, although I plan to Motzei Shabbat. I do hope others will chime in and that this will become more than a debate/discussion between two individuals, as this is an issue that Am Yisrael's future rests upon.

Shabbat Shalom and Chag Sameach

[wat0n]

As the offspring of a mixed marriage, I obviously voted yes for civil marriage, with no restrictions.

[Mediocrates]

In the states there is no friction with identity. The issue at its base is is that collection of informal 'rights' and privileges assigned to married couples as families. So for instance the laws of insurance, mortgages, probate, custody, adoption, divorce, living wills, medical proxies. What similar circumstances exist in Israel.

The other issue, the one of 'who is a Jew' and does the state recognize it is bit more complicated. Does the state have to recognize it? Does that boost Judaism? Does that make better Jews? Does creating a culture where civil, cultural and religious identity are wedded together ensure that identity is stronger? Does it make better Israelis?

That's a question Israelis have to answer for themselves.

[Reffo]

I am with curlyg on this one. It shouldn't be up to the state to dictate who people marry or don't marry ...

The number of "mixed" couples is not negligible

If the state does want to get involved in this issue, then let it get involved in a positive way. Introduce policies to encourage non Jews who marry Jews to become part of the Jewish people, identify with Jewish culture and become part of Israeli society and the Jewish people. We should welcome them as one of us. After all, in the diaspora, one of our problems is that we lose people through intermarriage and assimilation because minorities tend to be absorbed into the majority population. The same should apply in reverse in Israel which has a majority of Jewish people. But that will happen only if we are wise, tolerant and introduce wise policies ...

[sharonbn]

I am with curlyg on this one. It shouldn't be up to the state to dictate who people marry or don't marry ...

hear hear

[Yala]

I voted "not sure" because I don't know all the details surrounding this issue, but on another note I think all the power of "who is a Jew" should be taken out of the hands of the anti-Israel Charedi establishment.