Are you in favor of Civil Marriages in Israel?

[Reffo]

Yes, and we as Jews should fight prejudice in all it's forms, including our own prejudices.

Like I said, this issue is very much a case of: is the glass half empty or is the glass half full? My own opinion is that it is half full, particularly in Israel. Because handled properly, it can grow our numbers instead of driving away some of us ...

[Aliyah1995]

Here is the thing though. Not necessarily everyone (or even the majority of those) who intermarry want to become Jewish. Even among the hundred thousands of Olim who are not Jewish (at least not halachically), there are many who have no interest in converting. I am not saying this makes them bad people. Many are model citizens, serve in elite units in the IDF, and go on to some of the most prestigious careers and make some of the greatest contribution to Israel. However, the reality is they are perfectly content with being ISRAELI, yet have no desire to become Jewish. I am not talking about the arrogant Charedi dominated Rabbinate turning them off. Even if the easiest conversion was available there are many who would still not convert. Why should they feel the need to convert if they are not only Israeli in every sense of the word, but it even says they are "Jewish" on their teudat zehut and they are considered as such by the Interior Ministry. Or why should one convert if he/she is an atheist?

With all due respect to the story of Ruth (one of my favorite in Tanach), Ruth from the get go wanted to be Jewish. She would have pursued conversion even if she was confronted with the most nightmare of a Rabbinate. However, not all non-Jewish Olim from the FSU have the desire to become Jews. They are "Israeli" and that is enough.

Admittedly, this would be one of the advantages of civil marriage in Israel. That way the Rabbinate would not be in the position of being pressured to "dilute" their conversions and everyone would be free to marry under whoever and whatever ceremony they want without having to worry about whether they or their significant other is "kosher" enough for the Rabbinate.

However, keep in mind that we are not talking about 1% of the population here. In America, for example, even if every non-Christian was to marry a Christian, America would still remain predominately a Christian country (as the Jews make up about 3%, the Muslims about the same or even a little less, and the "others" might bring up the non-Christian population to 10% at the most). In Israel, on the other hand, by the time you add up the Arab population, the Olim from the FSU who are not Jewish, the foreign workers, etc. we are approaching about a third of the population.

Ideally, Israel would be able to be 100% democratic (including civil marriages across the board) and 100% a Jewish State (i.e. Law of Return, national holidays being the Jewish holidays, Hebrew being the national language, etc. etc.). However, the world is not black and white, there is gray and civil marriages in Israel (at least at this point) falls under the gray.

What is important is that we can keep civilly discussing this, which so far we have

[Reffo]

What is important is that we can keep civilly discussing this, which so far we have

I totally agree and I must say, I wasn't having a go at bararallu. He was just the messenger telling us how things are with some people. I was just having a go at the message ...

Ideally, Israel would be able to be 100% democratic (including civil marriages across the board) and 100% a Jewish State (i.e. Law of Return, national holidays being the Jewish holidays, Hebrew being the national language, etc. etc.). However, the world is not black and white, there is gray and civil marriages in Israel (at least at this point) falls under the gray

I must confess that perhaps there is not much difference between people like me and the non Jews in Israel that you are talking about. Perhaps the only difference is that I have Jewish parents but I too am not religious (although I do believe in G-D). So, as far as I am concerned, all I want to see from people of mixed marriage, is loyalty to the Jewish people and to the people of Israel in particular. And I do believe that if we would treat them right, accept them and treat them as one of our own, then we will get that from them and even more so from their children and children's children because they more than likely will be absorbed into the majority culture which in Israel is Jewish. And I dare say, that some of their children may even become religious down the track because such things do happen. But of course it won't happen at all if we reject them because that could cause even their Jewish partners to reject the Jewish people. Do we want that to happen?

[Backwards]

Regarding the foreign workers and immigrants from the Soviet Union, the people who are fine with an "Israeli" identity rather than a "Jewish" identity: Isn't having more and more people in the world who see themselves as Israeli, or Zionist, just as important as having more Jewish people?

Even though they don't want to become religious, I'd say their Israeli identity still makes them part Jewish (as Jewish as Reffo). They speak the language, know the history and the religion and eat the food. Isn't that pretty much what religion is to a significant number of Diaspora Jews?

As well as having more people loyal to Israel and Jews, Israel probably needs more secular people to offset the growing Haredi population (This is something that has been covered a lot lately in Israeli online newspapers. I'd like to see a thread created on this but can't yet make them.)

[curlyg]

As I feel it should be done on the books but not empower some questionable cliques of society.

But this is a very strange objection. Civil marriages are not something that the so-called "questionable cliques" can exploit. I know that bashing the Supreme Court is always a popular thing to do, but really this will give it no power, and certainly nothing it can use maliciously.

[Ahakon]

But this is a very strange objection. Civil marriages are not something that the so-called "questionable cliques" can exploit. I know that bashing the Supreme Court is always a popular thing to do, but really this will give it no power, and certainly nothing it can use maliciously.

I beg to difer, curlyg. This could have implications where it refers to arabs, for whom "family reunification" always means the non-israeli spouse coming over, and never the other way around. So yes, this also deals with matters which "the so-called "questionable cliques" can exploit. Leftist cliques, without a doubt.
Regarding "bashing the Supreme Court", that is not something done as a popular thing. The problem here is that Israel does not yet have a Constitution, due to the 'state of war' we are in since the country's inception. The result is that a lef-wing dominated supreme court is more powerful than the elected governments to shape the State of Israel. They have only themselves and their self-serving ideologies to answer to, and the power of police to see to it that they are obeyed. Oh, and they also have the power to make the police itself cower when israelis are attacked, mamed or killed by terrorists and/or arab provocateurs, because of the certain condemnation they would get should any leftist ngo file a complaint against them. "Sense of duty" seems to have been lost, thanks to the SC record...

[Mediocrates]

Here is the thing though. Not necessarily everyone (or even the majority of those) who intermarry want to become Jewish.

You're really talking about two different things. One is marriage - should a non Orthodox marriage be sanctioned. And the other is, what are the rules for conversion and/or governing marriage within that context. The first question is somewhat simpler than the second. If a Masorti Rabbis is willing to perform a wedding in full faith and credit for a couple to ascribe to that, then that is one thing. EVEN including the question of conversion. But, as I've before the Orthodox rules of conversion, and the problem with them is not that the bar is very high it's that its arbitrary. You can be the worst halachic Jew in the world and the Orthodox may greet you with open arms compared with the endless browbeating they give to converts who never, no matter what, will ever measure up or be accepted.

I've gone so far as to suggest that Orthodox, or some parts of it including some of the Chassidic groups should categorically stop permitting conversion at all. (And I am an Orthodox convert.) That way they could take themselves out of the discussion altogether.

[Backwards]

But, as I've before the Orthodox rules of conversion, and the problem with them is not that the bar is very high it's that its arbitrary. You can be the worst halachic Jew in the world and the Orthodox may greet you with open arms compared with the endless browbeating they give to converts who never, no matter what, will ever measure up or be accepted.

A majority of Israelis regard non-Orthodox converts to Judaism to be part of the Jewish people, according to a survey published Monday, putting the general public at odds with religious authorities.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...-jews-1.316032

[curlyg]

I beg to difer, curlyg. This could have implications where it refers to arabs, for whom "family reunification" always means the non-israeli spouse coming over, and never the other way around. So yes, this also deals with matters which "the so-called "questionable cliques" can exploit. Leftist cliques, without a doubt.

I disagree. Family reunification is a non-issue. Arabs can already get married with each other - they don't need an Israeli civil marriage institution for that. Israeli Arabs and Palestinians can simply have a wedding in the PA, or in Jordan, or possibly even in Israel under the existing system, and that marriage would be recognised by Israel. Family reunification in itself is presently quite severely limited under Israeli law at the moment, since the second intifada I believe, so that civil marriage is not going to be the thing that brings hoardes of Palestinians rushing across the border.

Regarding "bashing the Supreme Court", that is not something done as a popular thing. The problem here is that Israel does not yet have a Constitution, due to the 'state of war' we are in since the country's inception.

I don't believe that, and I'm very surprised that you do. Israel's state of war has nothing to do with it. This is like Assad explaining why Syria has not had elections for half a century and has maintained a state of emergency all because of the state of war with Israel. It's nonsense.

Israel never agreed on a constitution primarily because of religious opposition.

The result is that a lef-wing dominated supreme court is more powerful than the elected governments to shape the State of Israel.

This conclusion does not follow at all from your previous statement. Parliamentary democracies with unwritten constitutions, like the United Kingdom, place supreme power in the hands of the Parliament. The courts of the United States, on the other hand, exercising their power of judicial review, are far more powerful than those of the UK, since they can invalidate statutes using the written constitution. Look at cases like Roe v Wade if you want to see how extensive the powers of the US Supreme Court are compared to the British courts. Israel's legal system lies somewhere in between the US and the UK. Israel is a parliamentary democracy, but it does have quasi-constitutional laws (the Basic Laws) which the courts use to exercise limited judicial review.

Imo the biggest problem with the Israeli legal system is the way the Supreme Court has eroded requirements of standing and radically expanded justiciability, but I doubt that a written constitution would make this better - in fact it would make it worse.

They have only themselves and their self-serving ideologies to answer to, and the power of police to see to it that they are obeyed. Oh, and they also have the power to make the police itself cower when israelis are attacked, mamed or killed by terrorists and/or arab provocateurs, because of the certain condemnation they would get should any leftist ngo file a complaint against them. "Sense of duty" seems to have been lost, thanks to the SC record...

Courts have no power of their own. They are, I think, the "least dangerous branch." Bashing the Supreme Court is just a popular pastime - like bashing the media. It's all very conspiratorial. All the country is dominated by leftist elites, so we are told.

[Aliyah1995]

Reffo-

I must confess that perhaps there is not much difference between people like me and the non Jews in Israel that you are talking about. Perhaps the only difference is that I have Jewish parents but I too am not religious (although I do believe in G-D). So, as far as I am concerned, all I want to see from people of mixed marriage, is loyalty to the Jewish people and to the people of Israel in particular. And I do believe that if we would treat them right, accept them and treat them as one of our own, then we will get that from them and even more so from their children and children's children because they more than likely will be absorbed into the majority culture which in Israel is Jewish. And I dare say, that some of their children may even become religious down the track because such things do happen. But of course it won't happen at all if we reject them because that could cause even their Jewish partners to reject the Jewish people. Do we want that to happen?

Reffo, I am NOT out to judge individual Jews on their observance (or lack of) and I hope that is not the impression I am giving in this thread. Most Jews in Israel are not "religious" (whatever that means; certainly not Orthodox), so you are like most Jews in Israel. However, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. For better or worse, this is not synonymous with being "Israeli". Serving in the IDF, for example, does not a Jew make (read Druzim), but it does make a good Israeli (not something to be taken lightly).

As far as the rest of what you say, it is food for thought and I will take it into consideration. My question is though, will Judaism (not necessarily the "religious, but even the "cultural" Judaism) be able to remain the dominant culture of Israel? I am not so sure we can take this for granted. But, I do respect your perspective.

[Aliyah1995]

Mediocrates-

You're really talking about two different things. One is marriage - should a non Orthodox marriage be sanctioned. And the other is, what are the rules for conversion and/or governing marriage within that context. The first question is somewhat simpler than the second. If a Masorti Rabbis is willing to perform a wedding in full faith and credit for a couple to ascribe to that, then that is one thing. EVEN including the question of conversion.

This would be one of the advantages of civil marriage across the board in Israel (even from the perspective of the ultra-Orthodox). The Charedim would not be pressured to "water down" their conversions, so that prospective converts would be able to have an "easy" conversion so they could marry their significant other ASAP. On the other hand, the non-religious would feel less coercion as they could just be married in their own ceremonies (civil, reform, reconstructionist, mesorti, etc. etc.).

But, as I've before the Orthodox rules of conversion, and the problem with them is not that the bar is very high it's that its arbitrary. You can be the worst halachic Jew in the world and the Orthodox may greet you with open arms compared with the endless browbeating they give to converts who never, no matter what, will ever measure up or be accepted.

As far as being the "worst halachic Jew in the world", this is like one who is the worst American in the world, but still being an American. Regarding the endless browbeating they give to converts, not all Orthodox conversions are like this. I agree with Aharon that it is quite arrogant to not accept the IDF conversions performed by ORTHODOX Rabbis. The Charedi Rabbinate IMO has an approach towards conversion that has NO precedent until VERY recent times (not supported by the Shulchan Aruch, not by much of the Talmud).

I've gone so far as to suggest that Orthodox, or some parts of it including some of the Chassidic groups should categorically stop permitting conversion at all. (And I am an Orthodox convert.) That way they could take themselves out of the discussion altogether.

Hey, if Naturei Karta and Satmar choose to not accept converts to their sects, no skin off my nose and I dare say no skin off Am Yisrael's nose.

[Reffo]

As far as the rest of what you say, it is food for thought and I will take it into consideration. My question is though, will Judaism (not necessarily the "religious, but even the "cultural" Judaism) be able to remain the dominant culture of Israel? I am not so sure we can take this for granted. But, I do respect your perspective.

And I respect your perspective too. I also accept that the Jewish people owe a major debt to the religious people, it is because of them that Judaism survived in exile for 2000 years. Having said that, I believe that with the advent of Israel, the Jewish people will be able to adapt and survive even if some of us attach less importance to formal religion and accept others who want to tie their lot with us. Of course, in 100 or in 1000 years we may not be able to recognize ourselves as compared to today's Jewish people. But that would be natural, that's what time does and it need not be a bad thing ...

I do however feel confident in the resilience of the Jewish people. We have always been a hardy people who survived against all odds and I think that we will survive as a people, a Jewish people, who will no doubt adapt with the times and circumstances as we always have ...

[bararallu]

But this is a very strange objection. Civil marriages are not something that the so-called "questionable cliques" can exploit. I know that bashing the Supreme Court is always a popular thing to do, but really this will give it no power, and certainly nothing it can use maliciously.

Right now it is partially adjudicated by the rabanut and by the civil courts- ultimately the supreme court. I'd say that it can readily become another lever of power that contributes to the likes of the Labour party, Meretz and even worse. Again, if it was a more or less balanced powerbase with lots of checks and balances, then I'd have no problem with it. A land needs its laws to function.

As is, however, the civil courts are dangerously erosive of state sovereignty and, in my opinion, have a history with the Supreme court of weakening the Jewish national resolve. I'd like to have this done Curly, dont get me wrong, I'd like to have the core institutions of the state run completely in a secular fashion. The Left has such a strangle hold on our courts thought that I hesitate to empower them further. From my perspective there is no happy medium here, the heredi will ruin our lives and so will the Left- unless as I said, a million more (actual) Jews from Europe make aliah, the more from eastern Europe the better, since those people abhor anything that even whiffs of the Left.

I would vote immediately for a right wing Shinui. At this point Lieberman's party comes pretty closes to that, but I dont like him personally, he's a bit of a well... zhlob. That said, I haven't disagreed with him in a long time in fact, so I may have to rethink my prejudice. I'd also be comfortable with the national religious running those institutions in a "modern orthodox" or "conservadox" level of sanity.

[curlyg]

But civil marriages aren't really something that the courts can employ in the way you are concerned about. What are they going to do with it that can possibly be harmful to Israel's sovereignty?

[bararallu]

Please dont make simplistic reductions here. There is the forest and there are individual trees.

I did more than imply that what I'm worried about is the accumulation of political power- the forest is what concerns me.

This is one aspect of many in society. I don't want them broadening any definitions, I don't want them "interpreting" any sort of stated law under the lens of Brussels, if you get my drift. I want virtually zero under purview. Since they've lost the voting public trust. They are virtual aliens applying alien law on our population.