Are you in favor of Civil Marriages in Israel?

[bararallu]

I'm also in the not sure camp.

I totally support Civil Marriage on paper, and for removing authority from the ultra orthodox but I would not like to empower the anti sovereignty pro internationalist supreme court and their Left wing post Zionist voter base. If a separate, Dati Leuimi and/or Masorti run institution can be erected with sufficient checks and balances then I think I'm ok leaving it in their hands, if not... then I think a separate institution needs to be created to officiate true civil marriage with no Leftist or haredi hands on it, which I doubt will be possible- at least w/o another million Soviet or French (aka non religious hard core Zionist) Jews in the country.

Both the Left and the Ultra Orthodox camps erode our national consciousness, both camps are detrimental to our well being IMO, and for all purposes, equally. Also, I don't think its important to placate Liberal galuti religious institutions like the Reform movement in Israel, they are disappearing anyway and will be gone in 30 years or so. Inversely, mildly or moderately halachic movements (True Zionist, pro Aliah groups) should be supported and opinions somewhat weighed in the national consensus though.

[Ahakon]

The other issue, the one of 'who is a Jew' and does the state recognize it is bit more complicated. Does the state have to recognize it? Does that boost Judaism? Does that make better Jews? Does creating a culture where civil, cultural and religious identity are wedded together ensure that identity is stronger? Does it make better Israelis?

That's a question Israelis have to answer for themselves.

During Sukkot (this week) we have rituals involving "the four species", fruits and leaves that symbolize the Jewish people. Each is different, wher one is both edible and has good fragrance, other is not edible but has good fragrance, other is edible but does not have a good fragrance, and other is neither edible or good smelling. The question - as it relates to the thorny issue of "who is a Jew" is that this does not apply (in my view) to the atheist Jew, because the Torah says that one that rejects HaShem as the Creator of the universe and the Earth and Man (Bereshit 1) cast him/herself out of the People, in both the material and spiritual levels. This is not something that I made up, or that can be argued by the typical, secular Telavivit. They have the right to be post-modern, and say that Madonna’s “kabala” is “the” Kabbalah, or that… well, their other liberal proclivities are best let at that.
So the question of civil marriage is not "everybody's" business.
Israel is to dwell alone, to be different from the other peoples, to set an example to them, to be the guardian and keeper of the unchanged, divinely inspired Torah. Take or leave it.
It takes a lot of internal coherence to accept and to adhere to these goals, and to live a religious, observant life. Shas ministers err when they float the idea of suspending internet services during Shabbat to prevent people from sinning, because it goes against the effect, not the cause: people who do not keep Shabbat do it because they are not religious, and internet surfing is just one example of breach. Riding a car, watching tv, using the dishwasher etc. are all the same muktse that some “jews” will “post-modernly” defend as perfectly normal and acceptable.
This country was founded by secularists who wished to have a country "like any other" - and Tel Aviv is their poster child. A city like New York, with all its good and bad things. The "land of refuge" sought by Herzl and his followers was aimed at freeing the Jewish people from persecution, but I guess they did not imagine that, 62 years on, the country would still be struggling with a continued state of war against its arab neighbours, the effect this insecurity would have in the world jewry, which would (as most do) prefer to stay in the diaspora than to come over and help further build the country, the need to import foreign workers and the problems that this option bring to the social fabric of Israel.
So I am against civilian marriage in Israel for the time being. I am in favour of preserving what has kept the Jewish people from disappearing during the last two millenia, which was the Jewish Faith, of which Shabbat is one (shining, wonderful) aspect. I am also in favour of full recognition of conversions made by military Batei Din – it is utterly arrogant to consider such great (military) rabbis less prepared, religious, strict, you name it, than “the” Beit Din”.
“For the time being” – “If” Israel some day achieves peace with her neighbours, we will be able to write a constitution. That will be the real litmus test of our democratic character. Then will the Jewish tate of Israel settle this matter – but we have not reached that bridge yet.

[Aliyah1995]

I wanted to thank everybody for your responses. Seriously, I appreciate everyone's opinion on this topic. I guess my take on it is this. If there was a way that everyone in Israel could marry whoever they wanted and Israel would still magically remain a Jewish State, then I would have no problem. However, this is not the case. The non-Jewish population in Israel is hardly negligible.

I can understand wanting Israel to be a democratic country in every size, shape, and form on the one hand, but, on the other hand, if Israel is just going to be a Middle Eastern version of America or Canada, then what's the point?

A while back Jorge started another thread about the definition of a "Jewish State". I think I am safe by assuming that in order for Israel to remain a Jewish State (including everything from the Law of Return to the national holidays being the Jewish holidays) that the majority of Israel's citizens would have to be Jewish. This is why (save the radical left) Israelis are against the idea of the "Right of Return" for hundreds of thousands of "Palestinian Refugees". Intermarriage can open up the same can of worms.

As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter to me whether a Christian marries a Muslim, but I am not so sure I am ready to cross the line and allow intermarriages between Jews (halachic) and non-Jews in Israel. Not a popular view in this forum, but I am being honest.

[Reffo]

Aliyah

Thank you for opening this thread, it is a very important topic and very controversial. I think that all of us who responded, have our hearts in the right place, we all want to ensure the survival of the Jewish people and you are right, this is what is at stake here, it's not, nor should it be about left and right politics.

I guess, the reason why I voted in favor of civil marriage, I did so because I am confident in the resilience of our people and I see a positive in bringing into our fold people who want to marry Jewish partners. Even though I am not religious, I'll quote the story of Ruth from the bible. She was a gentile who married a Jew and king David was a descendant of hers. Her story sums up what I believe we should do ...

[bararallu]

Reffo,

This is being leveraged by the Left politically to boost their general prospects, so it is inherently a political issue. A lot more of us non or moderately religious right wingers would be behind the change if this was not the case. I also completely agree with your assessment that Jews, real Jews, do not need any prohibitions to keep Jewish indefinitely. And those that want to marry out will do so anyway, in Cyprus or elsewhere.

That is all secondary though in my estimation, since the tug of war on this issue is between two communities we should all abhor and penalize with extreme prejudice, the post Zionist Leftists and the anti Zionist strains of Ultra Orthodox. If I knew for a fact that neither party would benefit, I'd personally would love to vote yes for such a change. As is, it will benefit one or the other politically; and like taxes, it will be forever cumulative collection of political power over society.

[Reffo]

bararallu

Then This seems to be a classic case of the left having hijacked the moral high ground and the right reacting against it on the basis of a knee jerk reaction. This is too important for politics to be the driving force. There is nothing wrong with bi-partisan support of an issue, it happened before in politics and it will happen again ...

On the other hand, the way I see it, if we create difficulties for the significant numbers of secular Jews who choose to have non Jewish partners, we will drive many of those people away. I see that as a much bigger danger to us as a people. Not to mention that we are not being true to ourselves, those of us who claim that being Jewish is not just about religion, it is part of being a common people with common culture and heritage ...

[wat0n]

Why does everyone assume that mixed marriages will end up with the off-spring to stop identifying itself as Jewish in Israel from all countries? I could understand this fear if we were talking about another country, but Israel?

[Reffo]

watOn

Not 'everyone', I and many like me don't. In fact, I have friends who are offsprings of mixed marriages, who don't live in Israel and who are not religious but still identify themselves as part of the Jewish people.

[bararallu]

Why does everyone assume that mixed marriages will end up with the off-spring to stop identifying itself as Jewish in Israel from all countries? I could understand this fear if we were talking about another country, but Israel?

Well there is a moral the other way too... there was a young woman on here a year or so ago- half ethnic Russian half (from USSR I'd guess) Jewish, and she really had a hard time of it in Israel. She grew up mostly in Israel IIRC. Thats just the nature of these things, kids are cruel in school for example, and will use anything that is "different" to hurt someone often. So, the punchline is that encouraging these sorts of unions will a. create hardship on the products of such marriages and ultimately lead to the latter leaving the country for others. I believe the woman in question was looking to move to Germany.

I dont blame her, she doesnt feel that she belongs, even though she considers herself Jewish, or at least substantially Jewish. BTW, it's even worse for the inverse of such unions in the former USSR, I'd imagine in some parts of the galut generally. Thats the practical implication, not necessarily a definitive reason to not do it. As I feel it should be done on the books but not empower some questionable cliques of society.

[Reffo]

Thats just the nature of these things, kids are cruel in school for example, and will use anything that is "different" to hurt someone often

But we should NOT just accept this as the nature of things. We are human beings with free will and we should challenge this and change the nature of things. Unless of course we are willing to accept the idea that we will lose a significant number of our people through mixed partnerships, instead of gaining significant numbers of new members through those mixed marriages just by being kind, welcoming, human and Jewish ...

[wat0n]

Well there is a moral the other way too... there was a young woman on here a year or so ago- half ethnic Russian half (from USSR I'd guess) Jewish, and she really had a hard time of it in Israel. She grew up mostly in Israel IIRC. Thats just the nature of these things, kids are cruel in school for example, and will use anything that is "different" to hurt someone often. So, the punchline is that encouraging these sorts of unions will a. create hardship on the products of such marriages and ultimately lead to the latter leaving the country for others. I believe the woman in question was looking to move to Germany.

I dont blame her, she doesnt feel that she belongs, even though she considers herself Jewish, or at least substantially Jewish. BTW, it's even worse for the inverse of such unions in the former USSR, I'd imagine in some parts of the galut generally. Thats the practical implication, not necessarily a definitive reason to not do it. As I feel it should be done on the books but not empower some questionable cliques of society.

So she was harrassed for being half Jewish? But is this the normal thing in Israel?

[Mediocrates]

There is probably some kind of compromise such as accepting religious weddings from the Masorti, etc. Given that 3/4ths of Israelis are nominally secular it would allow people to be 'fully' married with minimal disruption for all concerned.

[bararallu]

So she was harrassed for being half Jewish? But is this the normal thing in Israel?

Yeah it can be, but not always or perhaps always intensely. If you advertise you are different you get harased by it by kids, I think thats pretty universal. That said, there is so much variation in public school in Israel that it's not so intense I think compared to other countries which have a very mono-ethnic majorities.

The other aspect of it is that there is ostracism of mixed married couples by their relatives, both sides often I bet. That is certainly true of Jews, in my family they'd cut relations over things like that. They are not western Jews and do not do the politically correct thing. If I was say to marry a non Jew, there would be torn shirts... and that works exactly the same for atheists or religious in my family. Its just not done.

I'd say that this woman suffered from both aspects of it, and finally had enough. I feel that most mixed marriage kids in Israel, but certainly not all, feel like they dont fully belong, unless they are halachic and live in halachic cliques where it matters a lot less.

[Reffo]

It hasn't been so in my circle of friends and family. But I am sure it happens ... and where it does happen, people need to grow up. I'll say this to our own as much as I'll say it to anyone where ever I see prejudice ...

[bararallu]

I'd say it is way less prevalent among Western Jews. Among eastern Jews, including eastern Ashkenazim, there is substantial ostracism of mixed marriage couples (non necessarily their children of course). The issue with schools and kids, that has it's own dynamic. Anything different can be divisive IMO, so ethnicity is just one aspect.