Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 44

Thread: Wilders on trial for incitement

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616

    Wilders on trial for incitement

    Holland put Geert Wilders on trial in the first purely political trial since the end of the cold war.

    http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/d...k-in-the-dock/

    Today is a big day in Europe, though you wouldn’t know it if you relied on the continent’s leading newspapers and television stations. It’s not that the resumption of the trial of Geert Wilders in the Netherlands for insulting Islam is being completely ignored. Even the BBC has managed a short piece anouncing the event on its website.

    It’s just that given the scale of its importance, it is deeply disturbing that it is effectively being demoted to what at best should be seen as a curiosity, and at worst as another example of the rise of the far right in an increasingly xenophobic Europe. So, it may be helpful to remind ourselves of precisely what is now going on in what was once considered Europe’s most libertarian-minded polity, and what this all means for the rest of us.

    The key thing to note is that this is a political trial — the first of its kind in any mature European democracy since the end of the Cold War, and possibly since the end of World War II. If found guilty, Wilders could face a jail sentence at which point he would become a political prisoner.

    Of course, the Dutch authorities would reject such a characterisation: Wilders is formally being charged with inciting hatred, against Muslims. The charges centre around a short film called Fitna which Wilders made in 2008 citing passages of the Koran and juxtaposing them with images of Islamist terrorism, the subjugation of women and homosexuals, and the application of extreme forms of Sharia law in Muslim societies. In the film and elsewhere, Wilders compares Islam to fascism and the Koran to Mein Kampf.

    Strong stuff, to be sure. But too strong for a healthy, democratic society? There are a number of reasons why the Wilders trial does in fact meet the criteria for a political rather than a criminal trial:

    First, Wilders is a leading Dutch politician. Indeed, following the recent elections his party has emerged as kingmaker for the new government which it will support in parliament without actually joining it in a formal capacity. The Dutch establishment is frightened of his growing influence and having failed over the years to stop Wilders at the polls is looking for extra-parliamentary methods to suppress him. Of course, the fact that sections of the Dutch establishment have ulterior motives does not in itself mean that a case against him could not be brought for legitimate motives. It is nonetheless important to understand the broader context as we consider the threadbare nature of the case that prosecutors have brought against him.

    So, second, the charges themselves are blatantly discriminatory in that they single out harsh criticism of Muslims as opposed to harsh criticism levelled against other members of society. Consider that it is Wilder’s misuse of the term fascism that is held by prosecutors to be among the most grievous instances of his incitement to hatred. But misuse of the term fascism has been practically a staple of leftist discourse against pretty well anyone who has got in their way since the end of World War II. Defaming people, parties, politicians and others as “fascists” is a practice that has been participated in by millions, a point I made in my book A State Beyond the Pale. Margaret Thatcher was a “fascist”. George Bush was a “fascist”. The police were “fascists”. The Catholic Church was “fascist”. Conservatives were “fascists”.

    There is really no way out of this for the Dutch judicial authorities. Either they must provide a convincing explanation as to why use of such insulting terminology is an actionable offence when applied against Muslims while it is not an actionable offence when applied against other groups, or they must simply accept that they are conducting a political trial. Since there is no conceivable explanation along such lines, the political nature of the trial is indisputable.

    The third issue to bear in mind is that Wilders does not incite violence. Indeed he has repeatedly denounced it and told his supporters to pursue peaceful and democratic avenues. Similarly, he explicitly eschews condemnation of individual Muslims. He depicts Islam as an ideology as much as a religion and it is on this basis that he makes his case against the teachings of the Koran.

    Now, one can disagree with that characterisation. Personally, I regard his arguments in this respect as unsustainable. There are simply too many disparate (and often contradictory) elements to draw upon in any religious document to describe it in terms of an ideology. But that is the point: “one can disagree” with him. Or at least, in a free society one should be able to disagree with him, and in so doing one can help promote a more enlightened and convincing narrative about the undoubted problems with significant movements inside the global Islamic community. But one can’t disagree with someone whose views have been suppressed. And without the possibility of disagreement, debate becomes impossible and freedom of speech no longer applies as a formative principle in the society in which one lives.

    Geert Wilders goes back on trial today. But Dutch and, by extension, European democracy is on trial too. The fact that so few people of influence in government and media can see the significance of all this is perhaps the most worrying thing of all.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,114

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    George Bush was a “fascist”.
    They said much worse things about George Bush. But the hypocritical leftists will never prosecute anyone for it.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,242

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    I want to see them find him guilty.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Dublin - Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    1,930

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    I hope he writes a book about his experiences and everyone calls for it to be banned.
    As a youth I used to weep in butcher's shops.

  5. #5
    ranchcer
    Guest

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    Mr Wilders has the stature but was born late. He should have been assigned to
    the Wewelsburg SS school project, perhaps..Some Jews still applaud the propagation of his peculiar Judeo-Christian values...purity of the blood, whiteness of the Dutch society and western culture, etc.. Radical Muslims are his best friends and he his not worth the rope to hang him.

  6. #6
    Rob
    Guest

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    There are a lot of things I strongly disagree with Wilders. And he is scary. Comparing this man to the SS is a grave insult to those who have experienced the Holocaust, however. Nowhere did he ever incite violence, on the contrary. I strongly disagree with him wanting to ban the Quran. Being born and raised in Holland I am sad Muslims changed it for the worse. One of the main reasons for me to have left a few years ago and go to Israel, where at least my kids donot have to be afraid to be proud of their jewish heritage at school and amongst friends.

  7. #7
    ranchcer
    Guest

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    The Shoah stems from white supremacists who despised humanity like Wilders. But I am not a racially pure Jew and if I had to leave the Netherlands it would be because of the massive traffic jams, the stagnant waters in the waterways, the flat and boring landscape and spying neighbors with their curtainless windows..To conclude on a positive note
    their meatballs are great

  8. #8
    Rob
    Guest

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    You will an impossible task showing that Wilders is a white supremist or is striving for racial purity. Its an unfounded libel. His problem is with Islam.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NY & TA
    Posts
    6,774

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    I agree he shouldn't be conflated with the likes of other European far right wingers. He believes that Islamism = fascism, if anything he is an anti Fascist and anti Racist. Arabs are some of the most racist people on Earth, to the point of committing genocide against Blacks and others based on their skin color and ethnic background.

  10. #10
    Rob
    Guest

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    Rancher, I donot like to get personal in discussions, but since you have insulting millions of people, including their off spring, deeply and hurtfull, I suggest that you either show the slightest indication that Wilders strives for white suprimacy and/or racial purity to back up your comparison with the SS (knee-jerking rhetoric doesnt count), or deeply and humbly apoogize to millions of jews, gypsies, homosexuals and invalides.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Dublin - Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    1,930

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    Well whatever his views are he should be allowed to say / print / think them even to the point where he's selling copies of Mein Kampf on Dam square whilst wrapped in a swastika.

    The judge who demanded he go to court is the real threat here.
    As a youth I used to weep in butcher's shops.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Yala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,528

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    And he is scary.
    Why do you find him scary?

    Being born and raised in Holland I am sad Muslims changed it for the worse.
    Can you elaborate? How exactly have they changed it for the worse? And do you mean they made it worse for Dutch Jews especially or just the general population?
    "It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders

  13. #13
    Senior Member Yala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,528

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
    The judge who demanded he go to court is the real threat here.
    Yes.

    Some of his ideas are extreme, but he is definitely not a right-wing fascist or racial supremacist. I think he takes things to the next level to bring attention to important issues. Europe has not been able to integrate their immigrants and the politicians have brushed this issue under the carpet for too long.
    "It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders

  14. #14
    Rob
    Guest

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    Quote Originally Posted by Yala View Post
    Why do you find him scary?
    He wants to limit freedom of religion, which I find scary and is very un-Dutch. The raison d'etre for the Netherlands is religious freedom. I could identify more with Pim Fortuyn, who wanted to deal with the issues within the framework of freedoms. He was killed though, by the left (not by a rope, but a bullet).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yala View Post
    Can you elaborate? How exactly have they changed it for the worse? And do you mean they made it worse for Dutch Jews especially or just the general population?
    The remark was for the general population. Muslims succeeded in shutting up a large proportion of the population. Their constant death threads and of course the murder of Theo van Gogh have been very effective. Thats the main change for the worse. In the slip stream of that many other worrying developments are occuring, like teachers being afraid to teach the Holocaust.
    As for Jews, there are not decoy Jews for nothing in Amsterdam-West...decoy Jews...Actual violence is very rare though. It is more constant intimidation in certain neighborhoods with nazi salutes and symbols and making sissing noises (refererring to the gas chambers).

  15. #15
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616

    Re: Wilders on trial for incitement

    But a trial? Seriously? You have a 3rd rate crappy little cannibal dictator people's 'republic' if your 'democracy' can't stand up to this.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Geert Wilders Poll Victory
    By maven in forum EU politics
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 03-15-2010, 05:00 AM
  2. Wilder's defensive strategy.
    By varian in forum In The News
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-02-2009, 02:13 PM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-18-2008, 08:57 AM
  4. In France paedophilia trial exposes judicial flaws
    By David_in_NYC in forum Religion/Culture
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-09-2004, 10:25 PM
  5. Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-28-2004, 06:04 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •