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Thread: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

  1. #1
    abu afak
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    [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Killing Christians
    By Amitai Etzioni - November 12, 2002

    On October 17, bombs killed 6 people and wounded 143 in Zamboanga, the Philippines. While press accounts mentioned in passing that the victims were Christians, few conveyed to the reader that these were people assaulted by Muslim extremists because of their religion. On September 25, militant Muslims shot dead 7 Christian Pakistanis execution style in Karachi. Most of the media failed to report this at all, though it was at least the fifth bloody attack on Christians in Pakistan in the last twelve months.

    And the media almost never point out that Christians are being killed, often at places of worship, in several countries with Islamic majorities or governments, not because they are Westerners or Americans (many are neither) but because they are Christians. Nor is the White House or Congress nearly as attentive--to put it mildly--to this pattern of killing as it is to any injury on either side of the conflict in Israel.

    People who follow international news are aware that a civil war raged in Ethiopia for more than 30 years. But few realize that it was a religious war--between Muslim Eritrea and Christian Ethiopia--in which tens of thousands perished. Many know that the people of East Timor were savaged, but it is rarely mentioned that most East Timorese are Christian, while the Indonesian militants who killed many of them and brutalized the refugees in West Timor are Muslim.
    Indeed, Christians in other parts of Indonesia have hardly fared better; for instance, thousands died during riots in the Moluccan Islands in 2000.

    The bloody war in the Sudan, similarly, pits the Muslim government in the North against the Christian and animist South. And in Nigeria, as Muslims try to impose a strict version of the legal code called sharia in several provinces, armed conflicts between Muslims and Christians have erupted and thousands have died. Just lately, in the Ivory Coast, Muslims in the North have been attacking Christians in the South. On a smaller scale but very much along the same lines, scores of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt in January 2000; several churches were burned in Kenya the following year.

    It seems somehow inflammatory to point to the religious element of these and many other conflicts. Nearly every day, meanwhile, some scholar assures us that Islam is a peaceable and loving religion. What is going on here? >From the beginning, Islam drew a distinction between Christians and Jews and other non-Muslims. The former were "people of the book." They had to pay special taxes and wear identifying clothing, yet their status reflected a certain respect for what Muslims saw as the earlier but incomplete and corrupted revelation recorded in the Bible. In the modern period, Christians and Jews are typically called Kuffr, or infidels. In countries under strict sharia, apostasy is a capital crime, and in the minds of extremists like Osama bin Laden, infidels too deserve death. While Muslim societies differ widely in their levels of tolerance, pluralism, and religious freedom, full respect for Christianity is virtually absent.

    This matter came up last spring at a conference held by Iranian reformers in Isfahan. The gathering brought together a number of Islamic and Western intellectuals in opposition to the thesis advanced by Samuel Huntington of Harvard University that Western and Islamic civilizations are bound to clash. During his presentation, Ebrahim Moosa, an imam from South Africa now teaching at Duke University, urged that Islam be recast so as to accommodate liberal attitudes. He stressed the need for three changes: recognition of women's equality with men; toleration of capitalism; and recognition of the full dignity and humanity of nonbelievers. But we are still waiting to hear from many other Muslim leaders as to whether they wish to move Islam in this direction.

    The White House has solid tactical reasons for stating and restating that our fight is only with terrorists, not Muslims. We must face the fact, however, that while the prophet has many moderate followers, the terrorists command great sympathy in the Islamic world not only because Islamic populations are anti-American or anti-Western, but also because the terrorists are attacking infidels. An elderly Afghan freed from detention at Guantanamo last week made a telling statement to a Washington Post reporter: "The Americans treated me well, but they were not Muslims, so I didn't like them."

    It is true that other religions have passed through violent and intolerant phases. And it is possible that moderate interpretations of Islam may again come to predominate. But we shall be unable to recognize and foster that development if we refuse to acknowledge that the violence currently erupting in many parts of the Islamic world is aimed not simply at the political and economic leadership of the West but also at its Judeo-Christian tradition. When Christians and Jews are no longer characterized as Kuffr, we shall know we have turned a corner.

    ©2002 - The Weekly Standard
    Last edited by abu afak; 06-12-2004 at 05:15 PM.

  2. #2
    reason
    Guest

    Re: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Originally posted by abu afak
    Killing Christians
    By Amitai Etzioni - November 12, 2002
    On October 17, bombs killed 6 people and wounded 143 in Zamboanga, the Philippines. While press accounts mentioned in passing that the victims were Christians, few conveyed to the reader that these were people assaulted by Muslim extremists because of their religion. On September 25, militant Muslims shot dead 7 Christian Pakistanis execution style in Karachi. Most of the media failed to report this at all, though it was at least the fifth bloody attack on Christians in Pakistan in the last twelve months.

    And the media almost never point out that Christians are being killed, often at places of worship, in several countries with Islamic majorities or governments, not because they are Westerners or Americans (many are neither) but because they are Christians. Nor is the White House or Congress nearly as attentive--to put it mildly--to this pattern of killing as it is to any injury on either side of the conflict in Israel.

    People who follow international news are aware that a civil war raged in Ethiopia for more than 30 years. But few realize that it was a religious war--between Muslim Eritrea and Christian Ethiopia--in which tens of thousands perished. Many know that the people of East Timor were savaged, but it is rarely mentioned that most East Timorese are Christian, while the Indonesian militants who killed many of them and brutalized the refugees in West Timor are Muslim. Indeed, Christians in other parts of Indonesia have hardly fared better; for instance, thousands died during riots in the Moluccan Islands in 2000.

    The bloody war in the Sudan, similarly, pits the Muslim government in the North against the Christian and animist South. And in Nigeria, as Muslims try to impose a strict version of the legal code called sharia in several provinces, armed conflicts between Muslims and Christians have erupted and thousands have died. Just lately, in the Ivory Coast, Muslims in the North have been attacking Christians in the South. On a smaller scale but very much along the same lines, scores of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt in January 2000; several churches were burned in Kenya the following year.

    It seems somehow inflammatory to point to the religious element of these and many other conflicts. Nearly every day, meanwhile, some scholar assures us that Islam is a peaceable and loving religion. What is going on here? >From the beginning, Islam drew a distinction between Christians and Jews and other non-Muslims. The former were "people of the book." They had to pay special taxes and wear identifying clothing, yet their status reflected a certain respect for what Muslims saw as the earlier but incomplete and corrupted revelation recorded in the Bible. In the modern period, Christians and Jews are typically called Kuffr, or infidels. In countries under strict sharia, apostasy is a capital crime, and in the minds of extremists like Osama bin Laden, infidels too deserve death. While Muslim societies differ widely in their levels of tolerance, pluralism, and religious freedom, full respect for Christianity is virtually absent.

    This matter came up last spring at a conference held by Iranian reformers in Isfahan. The gathering brought together a number of Islamic and Western intellectuals in opposition to the thesis advanced by Samuel Huntington of Harvard University that Western and Islamic civilizations are bound to clash. During his presentation, Ebrahim Moosa, an imam from South Africa now teaching at Duke University, urged that Islam be recast so as to accommodate liberal attitudes. He stressed the need for three changes: recognition of women's equality with men; toleration of capitalism; and recognition of the full dignity and humanity of nonbelievers. But we are still waiting to hear from many other Muslim leaders as to whether they wish to move Islam in this direction.

    The White House has solid tactical reasons for stating and restating that our fight is only with terrorists, not Muslims. We must face the fact, however, that while the prophet has many moderate followers, the terrorists command great sympathy in the Islamic world not only because Islamic populations are anti-American or anti-Western, but also because the terrorists are attacking infidels. An elderly Afghan freed from detention at Guantanamo last week made a telling statement to a Washington Post reporter: "The Americans treated me well, but they were not Muslims, so I didn't like them."

    It is true that other religions have passed through violent and intolerant phases. And it is possible that moderate interpretations of Islam may again come to predominate. But we shall be unable to recognize and foster that development if we refuse to acknowledge that the violence currently erupting in many parts of the Islamic world is aimed not simply at the political and economic leadership of the West but also at its Judeo-Christian tradition. When Christians and Jews are no longer characterized as Kuffr, we shall know we have turned a corner.

    ©2002 - The Weekly Standard
    Sadly these are facts, no one can deny that many Muslims with political goals have taken the religious path to attain that goal.Its a fact I would be dishonest to deny, but you would be dishonest to deny that catholics and protestants in Ireland are going through the same thing. Islam and christianity are the world 2 largest religions thats why there are more clashes between them than any other two religions. Who do we blame? I think this is a moot question.It is moot because I believe the two sides are equally guilty through out history and both sides have shown equal tolerance and non tolerance of other religions (not the actual religions but their supposed "followers").But as of today there is no doubt in my mind that some Muslim countries are alot more backward than some secular western ones, interm of civil rights, human rights, and what ever rights.Yes Muslims are the ones who must reform, adapt, and return to what god intended his religion to be , simple, peaceful,tolerant and good.That is why Muslims MUST speak out against these acts.

    Now after saying all this , I have to add that the vast majority of Muslims are not violent , Islam is a religion of peace and those who disagree with the latter I would love to answer his concerns.I dont blame christianity for what the Inquistions did, so please dont blame Islam for what Bin Laden does.

  3. #3
    abu afak
    Guest

    Re: Re: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Originally posted by reason
    That is why Muslims MUST speak out against these acts.

    Now after saying all this , I have to add that the vast majority of Muslims are not violent , Islam is a religion of peace and those who disagree with the latter I would love to answer his concerns.I dont blame christianity for what the Inquistions did, so please dont blame Islam for what Bin Laden does.
    Muslims Haven't 'spoken out against these acts' in any meaningful or large way.. WHERE are These guys?? Why wasn't there a demonstration of Pro-America Muslims in Washington DC since 9/11?

    Please read my string "The vast Majority of Muslims are not Violent, blah blah"..

    and Christianity IS to blame for the Inquisitions. As Islam is to Blame NOW.

    If Islam was just fighting with Christianity, we might have to look closer if it might be the Christians fault (Though in places like Sudan and Indonesia etc etc etc, Christians are clearly Being Butchered through no fault of their own)

    BUT, it's not Just Christians/Christianity. Wherever Islam touches another religion there is WAR. War with the Hindus on the Asian Subcontinent, War with the Jews in their 1/800 of the Middle East, and barring an opponent from another religion, Muslims kill each other (Iraq/Iran, Iraq Kuwait, Algerian Civil War, Afghan war we just Interupted, etc etc etc)

    It's NOT ISRAEL! ..... Israel is just a Tiny Spot on the Long 'Islamic Frontline' where HUNDREDS DIE EVERY DAY..

  4. #4
    IlyaFurman
    Guest

    Re: Re: Re: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Originally posted by abu afak
    Muslims Haven't 'spoken out against these acts' in any meaningful or large way.. WHERE are These guys?? Why wasn't there a demonstration of Pro-America Muslims in Washington DC since 9/11?

    http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...&threadid=1854

    there you go, all muslim leaders, 95% of muslim leaders, enjoy

  5. #5
    abu afak
    Guest

    Re: Re: Re: Re: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Originally posted by IlyaFurman
    http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...&threadid=1854

    there you go, all muslim leaders, 95% of muslim leaders, enjoy
    Incoherent answer Ilya .. try again.. What's your point?

  6. #6
    reason
    Guest

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Originally posted by abu afak
    Incoherent answer Ilya .. try again.. What's your point?
    Incoherent? My god, he provided you with a list of Muslim leaders that proves you are wrong, how is that Incoherent?

  7. #7
    abu afak
    Guest

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [Islam] "Killing Christians"

    Originally posted by reason
    Incoherent? My god, he provided you with a list of Muslim leaders that proves you are wrong, how is that Incoherent?
    I guess you missed Our exchange on another string 'reason' and it Does NOT prove I'm wrong.. au contrare.. From the string ">>>"the Great Majority of Muslims are Peaceful" blah blah<<
    http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...3371#post33371 2 posts at top of page ---------------------------------------------------

    abu afak
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    Great Ilya.. you've lined up a few Muslim leaders who 'condemn' terrorism ........ Like Arafat Condemns it... LOL

    Where are the Muslims who want to get rid of Sadam, the Biggest Killer of Muslims of all time??.. The Bigoted Tribalism of these people is astonishing... we could never have gone after Milosevich if we had their sick Mindset. They are defending Sadam from 'the Christians/Zionists'.

    And where are the American Muslims demonstrations of Support for America since 9/11!!! You think these people could have at least put on a Faux one in DC... but they can't... That's the Problem..there is quiet support for their Genocidal brothers.

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    11-14-2002 01:35 AM

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    IlyaFurman
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    (post #17)

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Originally posted by abu afak
    Great Ilya.. you've lined up a few Muslim leaders who 'condemn' terrorism ........ Like Arafat Condemns it... LOL

    Where are the Muslims who want to get rid of Sadam, the Biggest Killer of Muslims of all time??.. The Bigoted Tribalism of these people is astonishing... we could never have gone after Milosevich if we had their sick Mindset. They are defending Sadam from 'the Christians/Zionists'.

    And where are the American Muslims demonstrations of Support for America since 9/11!!! You think these people could have at least put on a Faux one in DC... but they can't... That's the Problem..there is quiet support for their Genocidal brothers.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ILYA: "Sadly I agree with almost everything you said."
    __________________________________________________ __





    That's how it ended on the other string.. Ilya AGREES with Everything >I< said.
    Last edited by abu afak; 11-04-2003 at 11:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Sadly these are facts, no one can deny that many Muslims with political goals have taken the religious path to attain that goal.


    No what's sad is that the religion and its political goals have become indistinguishable from one another. Islam has progressed to the point where a couple of hundred years from now historians will look back and call it the Age of Jihad, an analog to Christianity's Inquisition of the 16thC. And we understand now that that pushed the Prostestant Reformation to the fore. Time will tell if Islam spinters into its own Reformation.
    Last edited by Mediocrates; 11-14-2002 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #9
    reason
    Guest
    Originally posted by Mediocrates
    Sadly these are facts, no one can deny that many Muslims with political goals have taken the religious path to attain that goal.


    No what's sad is that the religion and its political goals have become indistinguishable from one another. Islam has progressed to the point where a couple of hundred years from now historians will look back and call it the Age of Jihad, an analog to Christianity's Inquisition of the 16thC. And we understand now that that pushed the Prostestant Reformation to the fore. Time will tell if Islam spinters into it's own Reformation.
    No the religion and the politics are distinguishable, one is not the other. Are you saying that judaism is also indistinguishable from politics hence a jewish state?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    No I'm saying what I'm saying. It wasn't any sort of analogy.

  11. #11
    IlyaFurman
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    I did post hunderds of muslim leaders that apolozige and say Islam is really not like that, but I dont agree with you saying they are "against it like Arafat", how would you know? I belive they agree to what they are saying, notice arafat and saddam didnt write in those statements.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by abu afak

    Where are the Muslims who want to get rid of Sadam, the Biggest Killer of Muslims of all time??.. The Bigoted Tribalism of these people is astonishing... we could never have gone after Milosevich if we had their sick Mindset. They are defending Sadam from 'the Christians/Zionists'.

    And where are the American Muslims demonstrations of Support for America since 9/11!!! You think these people could have at least put on a Faux one in DC... but they can't... That's the Problem..there is quiet support for their Genocidal brothers.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I agree with this statement above though, Muslims need to get away and distance themselves from the extremists, or people will start confusing them together which is happening already.

    And tribalism is a good term, its not yet out of the system, it will be out, for example saudi arabia was united after they united different tribes only in the 1920's I belive, it will change

  12. #12
    abu afak
    Guest
    Happily!! "Killing Christians" even in 'moderate' Indonesia. A perfect article to back up my title post of this string... and not the last

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...080786304.html

  13. #13
    Leon Uris
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    Now after saying all this , I have to add that the vast majority of Muslims are not violent , Islam is a religion of peace and those who disagree with the latter I would love to answer his concerns.
    A complete lie. For one, the statement that the majority of muslims are not violent is belied by fact. Moreover, islam itself is a violent and insane religion whose teachings enjoin their followers to kill and rape the innocent.

  14. #14
    IlyaFurman
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    Originally posted by Leon Uris
    A complete lie. For one, the statement that the majority of muslims are not violent is belied by fact. Moreover, islam itself is a violent and insane religion whose teachings enjoin their followers to kill and rape the innocent.
    So your telling me there are 1.4 billion violent muslims running around waiting to kill the infidels?

  15. #15
    abu afak
    Guest
    Originally posted by Leon Uris
    A complete lie. For one, the statement that the majority of muslims are not violent is belied by fact. Moreover, islam itself is a violent and insane religion whose teachings enjoin their followers to kill and rape the innocent.
    Ex from Letter to the Sditor of WSJ


    "...In 1990, when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, I was watching TV with some non-Arab Muslims. When they saw Saddam's tanks roll into Kuwait, they cheered. I'm not easily shocked by the inanities of Muslims (I've seen too much of them in my lifetime), but this was too much even for me. I screamed, "What the hell is wrong with you? He's just invaded a Muslim country and is slaughtering its inhabitants!"

    That didn't matter. What mattered was that Big Daddy Saddam, the new Saladin, was sticking it to the Crusaders. And criticisms like mine were fit only for--that's right, quislings.

    So: A pseudo-Muslim Arab leader invades an Arab Muslim country, rapes and slaughters its inhabitants, and plunders its wealth. Meanwhile, non-Arab Muslims cheer him on, as though he were Saladin (the Kurd). Of course, after the war, Saddam goes out and annihilates the Muslim population of Kurds...""

    Irfan Khawaja - Princeton, N.J.

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