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Thread: What Israel Is Up Against ...

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    What Israel Is Up Against ...

    What is the main obstacle for concluding a peace deal?

    We won't Recognize Israel as the Jewish State

    The obstacle today, as always, is Palestinian refusal to accept a Jewish state. That has been the core issue of the conflict from 1947 through Camp David 2000, when Arafat rejected Israel’s extraordinarily generous peace offer, made no counteroffer and started a terror war (the Second Intifada) two months later.
    Indeed, this week Abbas flatly told al-Quds, the leading Palestinian newspaper, “We won’t recognize Israel as a Jewish state.” Nice way to get things off on the right foot.
    What will Abbas do? Unable and/or unwilling to make peace, he will exploit President Obama’s tactical blunder, the settlement freeze imposed on Israel despite the fact that Israeli-Palestinian negotiations had gone on without such a precondition for 16 years prior. Abbas will walk out if the freeze is not renewed on Sept. 26. You don’t need to be prescient to see that coming. Abbas has already announced that is what he’ll do.
    The trifecta. Why not walk out? The world, which already condemns Israel even for self-defense, will be only too eager to blame Israel for the negotiation breakdown. And there is growing pressure to create a Palestinian state even if the talks fail — i.e., even if the Palestinians make no concessions at all. So why make any?

    The talks are well designed. Unfortunately, Abbas knows perfectly well how to undermine them.
    Last edited by Reffo; 01-14-2011 at 10:00 PM.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    And not even a promise of another settlement freeze would change their minds ...

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered Monday to halt settlement construction if the Palestinians were to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, but the Palestinian leadership was prompt to reject the proposal.
    Abbas: We'll never sign deal demanding recognition of Israel as Jewish state

    Yet some people even on this forum, well meaning people, never cease asking Israel to make MORE concessions. The mind boggles ...
    Last edited by Reffo; 01-14-2011 at 11:05 PM.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    They say: 'But we already recognized Israel and that should be enough ...' But is it?

    Imagine the reaction of the Spanish people if someone would say 'We recognize Spain but we will never recognize Spain as the state for the Spanish people' ... especially if those statements would be made in the context of wanting Spain to withdraw from lands in exchange for 'promises' (only promises) to stop a war of aggression waged against Spain precisely BECAUSE Spanish people professed Spain to be the state for the Spanish people ...

    No one would expect the Spanish to give in to such demands in exchange for empty promises of peace. Even though the Spanish people have other Spanish speaking places to retreat to elsewhere in the world if the worst came to the worst ... But somehow, for the Jewish people it always seems to be different. They only have this tiny patch of land called Israel which they can call their own. It represents 0.5% of the land mass of what Arabs own but the Arabs don't want to be seen to admit Jewish rights even to that tiny peace of land. Not even after more than 60 years of conflict in which they continuously shed Jewish blood and openly threatened Jews to drive them into the sea precisely BECAUSE the Jewish people set up Israel as the state for the Jewish people, the only such state in the world. And how many Arab states are there in the world? There are 22 Arab states but they want to turn Israel too into the 23rd Arab state through their demand for the so called right of return of millions of Palestinian Arabs into Israel proper. Even though as many Jewish refugees from Arab lands, and their descendants, have made Israel their home.

    The Arab demands and lack of willingness to compromise on ANY issue, labelled as 'demand for justice' by some but what it is in reality is demand for justice for Arabs BUT NOT FOR the Jewish people ...
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    They want to stall until some arbitrary critical mass of nations 'recognizes' the Palestinian state on the 1949 Armistice lines. At some point they will cross that threshold and allow someone to declare their state for them. Then they will sit with their hands out waiting for more cash.

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Talking about 'Justice', this writer has his own perspective about what should happen, I agree with him ...

    Justice: For Arabs Only? By Gerald A. Honigman

    Recently, at the end of the Arab League Summit, Amr Mussa declared that peace could not arrive until there was withdrawal from occupied territories, the creation of another state, and the return of refugees.
    Native Copts in Egypt—millions of them—had their country overrun by conquering, settling, subjugating, and occupying Arabs.

    To this day, they never know when the next murder will occur, the next church will be burned down. They have learned that to survive they must consent to the forced Arabization process. Their leaders have even written that for Israel to 'get along,' it too must consent to a variation of this. Pretty pathetic. Uncle Butros instead of Uncle Tom—but the same breed, if you know what I mean. Just imagine the world-wide outcry if Israel's Jews did this sort of thing to Israeli Arabs.
    The majority Berber population of North Africa saw its lands overrun as well over the past centuries by conquering, settling, and subjugating Arab hordes creating Arab empires. Imperialism is evidently only nasty when non-Arabs indulge in it. Berbers who dared to insist on keeping their own pre-Arab language and culture have been murdered for trying to do so. A look at any number of websites dealing with Berbers on these subjects will be revealing indeed.
    In 1968, Ismet Cherif Vanly wrote The Syrian Mein Kampf Against the Kurds. A Kurdish nationalist, he described the murderous and brutal Arabization policies—Syrian settling, conquering, and occupying Arabs—employed against Kurds who predated them in the land by thousands of years. Settling, conquering, and occupying Iraqi Arabs did likewise to Mesopotamia's ancient native Kurds (the Hurrians, Guti, Kassites, and Medes of old), Assyrians, and other non—Arab peoples as well—Jews included.
    Literally millions of native African Blacks have been butchered, maimed, enslaved, turned into refugees and seen their lands forcibly Arabized. All of this still going on today, and not just in the Sudan.
    Half of Israel's almost six million Jews originated in the Arab/Muslim world. They too predated the Arabs in many of those lands that they were forced to flee as refugees, leaving far more property and valuables behind than Arabs who fled in the opposite direction after the latter's brethren invaded a reborn Israel in 1948.
    The famous Jewish community in Alexandria, Egypt, was prominent centuries before Jesus. The Jews of Iraq had been in that country at least since the days of the Babylonian Captivity and Nebuchadnezzar. The Jews of Yemen were on the Arabian Peninsula before Muhammad was born, and the latter Prophet of Islam fled Mecca to Medina, a Jewish date palm oasis on that peninsula where the Jews were still prominent when Muhammad sought refuge there during the Hijra. When they would neither convert to his new faith (based largely on their own), nor accept his religio-political leadership, he butchered and enslaved them. Jews also took part in the resistance against the Arab imperial invasions of North Africa in the 7th century C.E. Recorded history, replete with similar instances, is difficult to reconcile with Amr Mussa's demand that the Jewish state submit to the will of the Arab world.
    A better course for the Middle East might be the following:

    It's time that the Africans of southern Sudan gain independence from the Arabs who have butchered, subjugated, and enslaved them over the centuries—long before the hypocrites in the United Nations raised so much as a mutter.

    It's time for thirty million truly stateless people—such as the Kurds—to finally get their own state. They were promised one after World War I but saw it sacrificed at the altar of British petroleum politics and Arab nationalism. An Arab Iraq was pieced together in its stead.

    Trusting Arabs—whether Shi'a or Sunni—is probably an unwise decision, given the track records of Arabs of any stripe towards these people. With almost two dozen states already—including one carved out of almost 80 percent of the original 1920 borders of 'Palestine' and today called Jordan—Arabs now have an American-sponsored roadmap to help create yet another for themselves. Yet even as they demand justice for Arabs, they seem deaf, dumb, and blind to the plight of the Kurds.

    It's time for the subjugation of North Africa's huge Berber populations to come to an end and for those folks to be able to decide if they want to remain forcibly tied to Arabs or not. If not, then why should they not get territory to create a Berber State if Arabs can get to have yet a second one carved out for themselves in 'Palestine?'

    You see, Mr. Musa, justice should not be exclusively for Arabs.
    And the above Arabs' victims' list is by no means complete. Just ask native Christian, Semitic but pre-Arab Lebanese—as just one other example.

    The hypocrisy of the conquering, racist, and subjugating Arab League is nauseating enough. That the latter, however, is widely supported in its demands on Israel by much of the rest of the world should be appalling to anyone with any notion of fair play.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    But Israel does not stand alone. Israel has many supporters too. Just listen to the following video. It is 29 minutes long but it's well worth listening to ...

    Christian Zionist Supporters of Israel

    Israel's own leaders could learn a thing or two from this speaker. I accept that thoughtful pragmatism has it's place but so has enthusiasm and determination. In times of war and danger Churchill's tone and this speaker's approach is appropriate.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    They want to stall until some arbitrary critical mass of nations 'recognizes' the Palestinian state on the 1949 Armistice lines. At some point they will cross that threshold and allow someone to declare their state for them. Then they will sit with their hands out waiting for more cash.
    Yep, folks can run about the mulberry bush, weasel like, shouting platitudes of support for Israel; however in the end, these so-called allies will capitulate to the Palestinian's whinging and ceaseless belly-aching.

    The Palestinian's sense of gross entitlement will bloat; thus, as you said, 'some arbitrary critical mass of nations, will cop-out in recognition of the 1949 Armistice lines. Sitting on their hands is what they, the Palestinians, prefer to call a career move. Most disturbing; there are beyond numerous, gullible munchkin-heads in the west that believe this is the out and out truth.

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    There are hordes and hordes of Israel bashers out there repeating ceaselessly a consistent mantra of anti Israel sound bites. Their repetition is endless and nausiating but they never tire of it.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Reffo, I'm sure you know from +972, that the international left is hardly sympathetic to the idea of a Jewish State (even within the armistice lines). So, Abbas can get away with this....All we (well, our leaders) can do is stand strong and refuse to give up this red line (as well as the so-called "Law or Return" for hundreds of thousand of foreign born Arabs to swamp Israel "proper")....
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    Reffo, I'm sure you know from +972, that the international left is hardly sympathetic to the idea of a Jewish State (even within the armistice lines). So, Abbas can get away with this....All we (well, our leaders) can do is stand strong and refuse to give up this red line (as well as the so-called "Law or Return" for hundreds of thousand of foreign born Arabs to swamp Israel "proper")....
    I couldn't agree with you more, Aliyah - Israel has to remain firm or as you mentioned, Israel will be awash with foreign born Arabs.

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah
    Reffo, I'm sure you know from +972, that the international left is hardly sympathetic to the idea of a Jewish State (even within the armistice lines). So, Abbas can get away with this....All we (well, our leaders) can do is stand strong and refuse to give up this red line (as well as the so-called "Law or Return" for hundreds of thousand of foreign born Arabs to swamp Israel "proper")....
    They try to misrepresent the word "Hasbarah" as propaganda. Although it is only our attempt to counteract THEIR repetititive lies, simplistic half truths and sound bites. For example, one of them called the Arab refugees "ex Israelis". Can you believe it?
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Isn't a question *Why* won't they (arabs? gentiles?) recognise Israel as Jewish state/home/land? (Though later post says they already [partially?] recognised Israel.)

    Its not Jews/(US/christians) versus Arabs/(UN/etc), its G'd versus world.
    If G'd is for us who can be against us?

    (Abel - Cain)
    Jacob - Esau
    (Moses - Pharaoh)
    Jephthah - Ammon
    (Daniel - jealous courtiers/priests)
    Mordecai/Esther - Haman ["boo"]
    Ezra/Nehemiah - arab/philistine/samaritan
    (k of the jews/Jesus - edomite Herod?)
    [christians - zealots]
    (jews - nazis)
    "Jews/Israel - Arabs/Moslems/Palestinians"
    vertical/spiritual - horizontal/material/man/world
    (woman/seed/saints - dragon/serpent/beast.)


    What is true Peace?
    Do we make a deal with the devil?
    Good and evil can't live side by side (in the universe).

    No offense but if Israel is a (the) Jewish home why do most Jews still live in the west (usa etc)?

    An ignorant question: is/was modern Israel (mainly/also coastal) sort of inverse of ancient Israel (mainly inner hill country, with Philistines and Egyptians along the coastal)?

    When I did a high school project on Israel at that time I thought the UNO idea of a jewish and palestinian state was a good idea, but later i found out that palestine had already been split into israel/palestine and (trans-)jordan. (& Palestinians have Gaza strip (ancient Philistia)?) By the way the high school teacher never returned that project to me...!

    Israel/Palestine isn't the only issue with Western rightists. Why do some think Zionism and Globalism/freetrade are connected ("zog/jog")?


    Imagine an Israel like in the prophet "in that day no one will say know the lord for then everyone will know him from least to the greatest (note not greatest to least).

    In one way jews could consider selves lucky at least you have a cultural identity and home [like native peoples have (like Maoris, Aztlan, etc)] (and are of the chosen/"natural branches"), many western europeans (esp christians) don't have.

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    There are Christians who do support the State of Israel and Judaism. I agree, there are some of those mentioned that have strings attached or an ulterior motive but not all. It's a never-ending question. Many outsiders do not, as you mention, realise the importance cultural identity of Judaism, which, I believe, is missing in some, perhaps most other religions.

    It has been an age old battle against ignorance, gross intolerance and hatred based on the former; however, ultimately, it is envy on the part of many, which they would deny.

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    Re: What Israel Is Up Against ...

    Given the history of Arabs and their behavior toward non Arabs, and that is most of the Middle Eastern civilizations that was Arabised by them, it goes like this:

    1- We must recognize your existence as follower of the book.
    2- We must observe your existence and how close you follow your book.
    3- We must accuse you of not following your book even if you do.
    4- We must spit, stone, lynch, and flush you out of your land.
    5- As for the ones who will remain, the ones who are called people with resilience, with steadfastness; the ones you cornered now as right-wingers, or anything else, they will be obliged to live under the Arab's mercy where they certainly take care of them by recognizing their miseries and declare them Hallal to be slaughtered at will anytime anywhere they wish then in the future...

    PS: The future means Generations down the road...
    Political Poop is the Semicolon between Taqiyya and the Liberals of fool.

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