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Thread: Koraan: Miracles or Mistakes?

  1. #31
    IlyaFurman
    Guest
    Originally posted by reason
    LoL Ilya its clear to everyone here but you that ezra dosnt know how to read , thats why i didnt even bother answering it. It dosnt say it stops(on the contrary) he just assumed it did .In arabic it means "goes on its path" or "runs its path" in the translation he used the word "course" for "path" so he ended with "runs its course", which ezra assumed meant it comes to a stop.
    I know he doesnt know what he is talking about, and says "keep barking" cause he doesnt have an answer. I love stumping him.

  2. #32
    ayesha
    Guest
    Ezra, I would like to reply to your first post, as i can see there is an issue of misnderstanding. if i may, i will comment on this at my first opportunity.

  3. #33
    Ezra
    Guest
    Originally posted by ayesha
    Ezra, I would like to reply to your first post, as i can see there is an issue of misnderstanding. if i may, i will comment on this at my first opportunity.
    I'm looking forward for that. At least we can get back to civilized discussion after the usual interruption from the BS-specialized-two-brothers .

  4. #34
    ayesha
    Guest
    Originally posted by Ezra
    I'm looking forward for that. At least we can get back to civilized discussion after the usual interruption from the BS-specialized-two-brothers .
    lol . looking forward to the discussions

  5. #35
    ayesha
    Guest
    Ezra:

    These ayats illustrate a hadith that explains how the nonbelievers of Mecca went to the learned Jews to ask them to look in their scripture and see if Muhammed (pbuh) was really the Prophet prophesised to come. So, the Jews instructed the nonbelievers to ask the Prophet (pbuh) about a series of things - if he was able to answer them then he was indeed the Prophet. One of the things the Jews told the Quraish to ask the Prophet was Who was Dhil Qarnayn? What was his story? Why was he significant? This surah was revealed in response to these Qs.

    As a footnote - concerning Dhil Qarnayn, Muslims believe he was a noble and righteous man, a servant of God who called upon people to worship God. Upon completion of building the Ka'ba, Dhil Qarnayn accompanied Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) in performing tawaf. (Dhil Qarnayn's closest ally was Khidr, who is mentioned with Prophet Moses (pbuh) in the verses prior).

    There is somewhat of a difference of opinion from all corners about why he was called Dhil Qarnayn .

    The Israelites/Jews believe he was called Dhil Qarnayn because he was Head King and ruled the 2 great nations of the Roman and the Persians. Other Jews and some Christians believe that he was called this because he had 2 horns on his head. Another narration says he is called Dhil Qarnayn because he was struck with a blow to the head after calling people to the worship of God and consequently killed. But then came back to life, called them to God's worship again and was struck and killed again.

    Why he was called Dhil Qarnayn is irrelevant. What is relevant is his story. The story of this man is an exceedingly long one - you must read to verse 98/99, then understand the tafseer, accompanying ahadith, understand Dhil Qarnayn's connection to Gog and Magog (Jooge wa Magooge), G & M's connection to when Israfil blows the horn, the Day of Judgement and Anti-Christ. To understand 83-99 you must understand all this because all the above information must be utilised in accordance with each other continually.

    Nonetheless, I will attempt to explain the verses you quoted from Chapter 18 (Al-Kahf / The Cave) 83-86.

    Verse 83 (Arabic)
    "Wa yas-alounaka a'n Dhil Qarnayn. Qul: 'Sa-atlou a'laykum minhu thikra"

    (English)
    "And they ask you about Dhil Qarnayn. Say: 'I shall recite to you something of his story"

    Very basically, 83 is just speaking about what I said previously - about the Prophet being asked about Dhil Qarnayn. Note, the verse only says "they ask you" it doesn't say why or who is asking (therefore, you see why it is paramount to real all the background information to know what is going on exactly, otherwise you're lost).

    Verse 84 (Arabic)
    "Innaa makanna lahou fil ardi wa a'taynahu min kulli shayin sabbaba"

    (English)
    "Verily, We established him in the earth, and we gave him the means of everyhing"

    Meaning, Allah granted Dhil Qarnayn a great kingdom, he was above wll other kings. He had a magnificent army, could speak all languages, was the most knowledgeable of all men. Everyone was under his rule and he had everything at his feet. This is what is meant by he was given all means.

    Verse 85 (Arabic)
    "Fa atba' sabbaba"

    (English)
    "So he followed a way"

    "Sabbaba" in this context means "path". The verse meaning he journeyed on a pth, that was a pathway from the west end of the earth to the east.

    Verse 86 (Arabic)
    "Hata itha balagha maghrib ash-shamsi wajadaha taghrubu fi a'ynin hami-a-tin wa-wajada e'ndaha qowma. Qulna: 'Ya Dhal Qarnayn imma an tua'thiba, wa imma an tatakhitha feehim husna."

    (English)
    "Until when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black, muddy (hot) water. And he found near it a people. We said 'O Dhal Qarnayn either you punish them or treat them with kindness."

    This verse speaks of Dhil Qarnayn and his army travelling on the pathway until sunset, and he perceived it to be setting in the water. "a'ynin" literally means "eye" but here is meant a spring or in another context a specific point/part of (the water). The sea is described as black and muddy/murky, the "hami-a-tin" means "clay-like liquid". It does not suggest that the sun sets there, only that he perceived it to. Just as if you watch the sun set on a beach, the a'nin would be the point where the sun goes down 'into the water'.
    He finds nearby it a nation of people whom Allah allowed him to do with them as he saw fit. He calls them to the worship of God and warns them that those who practice mischief will be punished and those who do good will be treated well.

    From here to verse 98 is his story but as I say it may not make sense without knowing accompanying information. However, for now I think I have deployed sufficient explanations and clarified the misunderstanding about the sun's setting.

    If you have no further comments then I'll move to the other verses.

  6. #36
    reason
    Guest
    This verse speaks of Dhil Qarnayn and his army travelling on the pathway until sunset, and he perceived it to be setting in the water. "a'ynin" literally means "eye" but here is meant a spring or in another context a specific point/part of (the water). The sea is described as black and muddy/murky, the "hami-a-tin" means "clay-like liquid". It does not suggest that the sun sets there, only that he perceived it to. Just as if you watch the sun set on a beach, the a'nin would be the point where the sun goes down 'into the water'.

    I agree and this is what I posted earlier.

  7. #37
    reason
    Guest
    Originally posted by Ezra
    I'm looking forward for that. At least we can get back to civilized discussion after the usual interruption from the BS-specialized-two-brothers .
    Hahahaha can your mother and father remain brother and sister after the divorce?

  8. #38
    ayesha
    Guest
    Originally posted by reason
    This verse speaks of Dhil Qarnayn and his army travelling on the pathway until sunset, and he perceived it to be setting in the water. "a'ynin" literally means "eye" but here is meant a spring or in another context a specific point/part of (the water). The sea is described as black and muddy/murky, the "hami-a-tin" means "clay-like liquid". It does not suggest that the sun sets there, only that he perceived it to. Just as if you watch the sun set on a beach, the a'nin would be the point where the sun goes down 'into the water'.

    I agree and this is what I posted earlier.
    we agree on something, zaghroutey!

  9. #39
    Hierophant
    Guest
    The Israelites/Jews believe he was called Dhil Qarnayn because he was Head King and ruled the 2 great nations of the Roman and the Persians. Other Jews and some Christians believe that he was called this because he had 2 horns on his head. Another narration says he is called Dhil Qarnayn because he was struck with a blow to the head after calling people to the worship of God and consequently killed. But then came back to life, called them to God's worship again and was struck and killed again.
    This just stood out to me because in summerian mythology (and those myths derived from them) the two horns are representative of being a god.

    but i didnt mean to interrupt.

  10. #40
    ayesha
    Guest
    Originally posted by Hierophant
    This just stood out to me because in summerian mythology (and those myths derived from them) the two horns are representative of being a god.

    but i didnt mean to interrupt.
    Your interruption is valued.
    Your post is somewhat intriguing I have not heard this before, could you elaborate at all?

  11. #41
    Hierophant
    Guest
    I can give an example:

    Anu (sumerian for 'heaven') was the sky god, living in the 'third heaven' His second consort was Ishtar (Innina) He has the ability that anything he puts into words, becomes reality. He was also the father to Ea. Anu is symbolised by the 'divine horned cap'

    If you take a look around the web you'll find images of different stone and clay tablets and cylinder seals from the sumerian kingdoms (and some of the subsequent ones) up to the hittites, you'll see all followed this pattern of identifying gods with a horned cap on their head.

    this image depicts the creation of man, with tree of life and all.
    http://www.crystalinks.com/enkilab.jpg

  12. #42
    Hierophant
    Guest
    I was doing some more reading on this topic and i came across a curious fact: There are actually several different versions of the arabic quran. So, which one is supposed to be the 'revealed' one?

    Now i dont completely understand how this all works in regards to "Readers" and "Transmitters" Perhaps someone can explain.

    It appears the muslim world in general use a version of the quran in which the transmitter is Hafs and the reader is Abu Bakr `Asim.

    some other readers are: Nafi`(Algeria, Morocco, parts of Tunisia, West Africa and Sudan, Libya, Tunisia and parts of Qatar), Ibn Kathir al-Bazzi, Abu `Amr al-'Ala' (Parts of Sudan and West Africa), Ibn `Amir (Parts of Yemen), Hamzah, al-Qisa'i, Abu Ja`far, Ya`qub al-Hashimi, and Khalaf al-Bazzar. (There are even more Readers than these but these are considered the most authoritative. The information regarding the current area of use comes from Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi, An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'aan, United Kingdom: Al-Hidaayah, 1999, p. 199)

    Now, if it was me defending the differences in these versions, i'd dismiss most of them as they are usually very minor differences (wa instead fa for example) assorted differences in diacritical marks, etc. And they, most likely, do not affect overall meaning of the texts. ... But then i've never claimed the book(s) was(were) perfect and the precise words of the Creator.

  13. #43
    andak01
    Guest
    Originally posted by Hierophant
    I was doing some more reading on this topic and i came across a curious fact: There are actually several different versions of the arabic quran. So, which one is supposed to be the 'revealed' one?
    Let me answer this one. I just returned from Morocco where I visited an ancient madrasa in Fez. In that madrasa, seven different 'readings' of the Qur'an were taught. First off, if you believe that these readings mean different things, it should strike you as strange that all seven readings would be acceptable within the same mosque. Saying that these readings are different versions ammounts to saying that Bizet wrote a different version of Carmen for every tenor that sings the part of Don Jose. There are different readings, but the notes and the lyrics remain the same. Likewise, every syllable and letter remain the same with different Qur'anic recitations, only the breathing and stress changes. I am familiar with this subject because my father-in-law is a hafiz (having memorized the entire Qur'an) and when he recites it, there is a distinctive metric difference in where he places the stress. But the words and meaning are absolutely unchanged.

  14. #44
    Hierophant
    Guest
    i agree that the basic meaning remains the same. altho i can't prove it, it makes the most sense to me. But, what you said about every syllable and word being the same, and only the breathing and how different words are stressed, is false. (i gave the example of 'fa' and 'wa') these differences ARE acknowledged by islamic scholars.

    I already acknowledged the insignificance of these differences to me. but then i'm not a muslim.

    heres what a cpl scholars say regarding the different readings (to be objective)
    SCHOLARS WHO SAY THAT THE VARIANT READINGS ARE ALL PART OF THE QUR'AN

    This oral tradition (of the Qur'an) embraces ten distinct systems of recitation, or, as they are generally called among scholars, "Readings" (qiraa'aat), each tranmitted by a "school" of Koran-readers deriving its authority from a prominent reader of the second or early third century of the Islamic era. The slight variation among the Ten Readings is attributable to the dialectal variation in the original Revelation. ... It should be emphasized that all of the Readings were transmitted orally from the Prophet (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, translated by B. Weis, M. Rauf and M. Berger, Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 53)

    Every reading in accordance with Arabic (grammar) even if (only) in some way, and in accordance with one of the masaahif of Uthmaan, even if (only) probable, and with sound chain of transmission, is a correct (Sahiih) reading, which must not be rejected, and may not be denied, but it belongs to the seven modes (ahruf) according to which the Qur'aan was revealed, and the people are obliged to accept it, no matter whether it is from the seven Imaans, or the ten or from other accepted Imaans (Abu-l-Khair bin al-Jazari, cited from Ahmad von Denffer, Ulum Al-Qur'an, UK: The Islamic Foundation, 1994. p. 119)

    SCHOLARS WHO SAY THAT THE VARIANT READINGS ARE FROM HUMAN ERROR

    The Koran was originally recited in one language and one dialect, namely that of the Quraysh. However, as soon as readers from the different tribes began to recite it, a variety of readings emerged, reflecting dialectal differences among the readers. The diversity was so great that later generations of readers and scholars had to labor intensely over the recording and careful analysis of these readings. In so doing they give rise to a special science, or rather special sciences, devoted exclusively to this enterprise. ...
    ... I should pause here to note that certain religious authorities have supposed that the Seven Readings were transmitted by a process of continuous transmission (tawaatur) on a wide scale from the Prophet himself, unto whom, so they allege, they were revealed by Gabriel. These authorities therefore consider that whoever rejects any of the established readings is an unbeliever. They have not, however, been able to produce any evidence for what they claim except that the tradition which reads, "The Koran was revealed in seven dialects (ahruf)".
    The truth of the matter is that the seven Readings had nothing to do with the Revelation, nothing in the least; and whoever rejects any of them is not for having done so an unbeliever; nor has he sinned or gone astray in his religion. The origin of these Readings is to be found in the diversity of tribal dialects among the early Muslim Arabs, and everyone has the right to dispute them, and to accept and reject them, or parts of them, as seems proper.
    In point of fact, people have disputed the Readings and argued over them, and have even accused each other of error with respect to them; yet we know of no Muslim who ever charged another with unbelief over this matter (Taahaa Husayn, Fi'l-Adab al-jaahilii, pp. 98-99. Cited from Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, translated by B. Weis, M. Rauf and M. Berger, Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, pp. 97-99) Before closing this note a few words about the recitations Qir'aat - It is generally known that there are seven or ten different recitations of the Qur'an - By recitation is meant the different wordings which convey the same or allied meanings Maalik and Malik - Such as Yatta'harna and Yat'harna. It is generally believed the recitation of the seven or the ten reciters of the first, second and third century of Islam are valid and the Muslims are allowed to adopt either of these in their reciting Qur'an and it is generally held that the origin of these various recitations go back to the time of the Holy Prophet who approved these varieties but according to the Shia Ithna-Ashari School whose views are based on the teachings of the Holy Imams, the revealed recitation of the Qur'an cannot be but one and as the Imam puts it, "Qur'an is One, came down from the One, the variation in recitation comes from the reciters not from God." (S. V. Mir Ahmed Ali, The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary, New York: Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, 1988, p. 58a)
    of course, as soon as excuses are offered for the differences, claims of authenticity become highly suspect. This is compounded by researching how the surahs were collected.

  15. #45
    reason
    Guest
    Originally posted by Hierophant
    i agree that the basic meaning remains the same. altho i can't prove it, it makes the most sense to me. But, what you said about every syllable and word being the same, and only the breathing and how different words are stressed, is false. (i gave the example of 'fa' and 'wa') these differences ARE acknowledged by islamic scholars.

    I already acknowledged the insignificance of these differences to me. but then i'm not a muslim.

    heres what a cpl scholars say regarding the different readings (to be objective)


    of course, as soon as excuses are offered for the differences, claims of authenticity become highly suspect. This is compounded by researching how the surahs were collected.
    The words and the meanings are unchanged its the way you pronounce it, thats the difference.The words are the exact same, but some dialects pronounce words differently. I think you misunderstood that post.

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