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Thread: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

  1. #16
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by curlyg
    I actually agree with Kachah more than Reffo on the settlements point. It's not worth getting bogged down in
    OK, if we ignore THEIR (Israel's critics) endless repetition that "the settlements are illegal" then the problem will just go away, right? ... I am sorry but I don't agree.

    Before long, it will be accepted wisdom, in fact it has already happened because we ignored their BS for so long. And what has been the outcome? Even some reasonable people blame Israel for the stalemate because they say: " ... it's the settlements, stupid ...."

    Quote Originally Posted by curlyg
    this is the mistake Obama made from the start of his presidency
    Yes and Obama made that mistake precisely because for years, Israel and it's supporters just rolled over and did NOT challenge the lies that the settlements are illegal. Had Israel's supporters in the US kicked up a fuss and insisted that the settlements are NOT illegal then Obama might have thought twice about making the settlements the main issue.

    NOTE:- I am not arguing about the wisdom of the settlements. I am arguing about the legality of the settlements. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the two. Israel and it's supporters should Insist that the settlements are NOT illegal, NO compromise on THAT score but the wisdom of building more settlements is legitimate debate. The former allows Israel to be delegitimised and be subjected to pressure. The latter is just a matter of opinion and cannot be used to make conditions or to delegitimise Israel. It's as simple as that.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  2. #17
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by curlyg
    The notion of making peace with Arab people instead of their regimes is not without merit
    It sounds like a good slogan but it is a pie in the sky notion ...

    How exactly would Israel ignore the Arab leaders, whoever they are, and make peace directly with the Arab people? For that matter, WHO are, the Arab people exactly? Are they a monolithic entity? Or are they made up by various groups. Seculars, religious, nationalists, left wingers, right wingers, moderates, fanatics and so on ...

    Is it possible to please ALL of them? The only way I can think of doing that Is if Israel would commit national Hara Kiri. How exactly would Israel make a separate peace with such a multitude? It's hard enough to make peace with even Arab leaders some of whom are absolute rulers whose word is the law.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  3. #18
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    "The notion of making peace with Arab people instead of their regimes is not without merit. "

    Absolutely no merit. Making peace with illiterate, paranoid, shame culture ridden Cro-Magnon who cant even understand, nor honor, terms of contract, are the zenith of academic self indulgence- or the nadir of rational behavior.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Since when have the 'Arab people' had any bearing?

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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu View Post
    "The notion of making peace with Arab people instead of their regimes is not without merit. "

    Absolutely no merit. Making peace with illiterate, paranoid, shame culture ridden Cro-Magnon who cant even understand, nor honor, terms of contract, are the zenith of academic self indulgence- or the nadir of rational behavior.
    So you basically say this:

    1) Peace with Arab dictators is worthless because they are dictators, liable to be swept away by the people.
    2) Peace with potentially semi-legitimate Arab leaders is worthless, because the people they represent are barbarians.

    So presumably the conclusion you would have us adopt is that Arabs are singularly incapable of peace under any circumstances?

  6. #21
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Oh and by the way, in my other post "Arab people" was meant to say "Arab peoples"

  7. #22
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by curlyg View Post
    So you basically say this:

    1) Peace with Arab dictators is worthless because they are dictators, liable to be swept away by the people.
    2) Peace with potentially semi-legitimate Arab leaders is worthless, because the people they represent are barbarians.

    So presumably the conclusion you would have us adopt is that Arabs are singularly incapable of peace under any circumstances?
    I would say that peace with Arab authoritarian leaders is as useful as it is useful to them. They are good to keep around in the name of predictable stability. Or as stable as they are able. This amounts to tolerating their insane rhetoric while their tanks and bombers rust out. On the other hand 'People's Revolutions' often result in anarchy. Anarchy ends in asymmetrical warfare and surreptitiously sending arms to Hamas and other groups like that.

    But it's clear that among China, Russia and the US, there's an arms race going on in the mideast. Russians sell advanced anti aircraft missiles to Lebanon and Syria, the US sells F-16's to everyone. China sells anti ship missiles to to comers. But these are all expensive complex systems that require training and maintenance. Not something Arabs are good at or motivated to become good at. And in fact who wants to get in an actual war with Israel when they can give SA-18 missiles to the PFLP and have them shoot down an airliner? No one's going to hold them accountable for that.

    I said this years ago when it was clear that Israel is fighting a post-strategic war. There are no wider strategic military aims. It's tribal. Nuclear armed cruise missiles on submarines are not very useful any more because there are few strategic goals let alone targets. They can keep them in their back pocket as a final option against WMDs but it's also clear that WMD's are likely to be used by any of their primary opponents. Israel's bomb in the basement may ensure those opponents don't develop strategic WMDs but why would Israel encourage them not to spend enormous amounts of capital to do that. One positive thing to come out of Iran's atomic weapons program is that it's bankrupting them. If they didn't do it they'd have billions more to give to Hezbollah. And a counter tactical missile shield for Israel would cost a tremendous amount of money if Hezbollah had 400,000 missiles instead of 10% of that.

    So the problem, to me, is not who you make 'peace' with, but how much leakage you can tolerate coming out of a given agreement. Are dictators more likely not to give weapons to freelancers who might one day use them against their own? Yes. Are 'People's Revolutions' more likely to spread weapons and cash around and sow fear and confusion? Yes they are. I say let the remaining batch of Gadaffis and Mubareks scream every day for the blood of Jews to run in the gutter. Who cares? Their armies are trash and they need them to point the guns at their own people.

  8. #23
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by curlyg View Post
    So you basically say this:

    1) Peace with Arab dictators is worthless because they are dictators, liable to be swept away by the people.
    2) Peace with potentially semi-legitimate Arab leaders is worthless, because the people they represent are barbarians.

    So presumably the conclusion you would have us adopt is that Arabs are singularly incapable of peace under any circumstances?
    Over all that is a correct assessment of my position, with the clarification of "Arabs" = "Muslim Arabs" living in Muslim majority countries, aka dictatorships of one stripe or another.

    Also, it's not merely "worthless" but dangerous, given that the formula "land for peace," is fundamentally irresponsible, and racist towards Jews.

  9. #24
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Oh and by the way, in my other post "Arab people" was meant to say "Arab peoples"
    There is no such grammatical distinction in Arabic .

  10. #25
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by curlyg
    So presumably the conclusion you would have us adopt is that Arabs are singularly incapable of peace under any circumstances?
    I for one am not saying that. I am saying that peace will break out when the Arab peoples will reach the stage of being sick of war. At that point, their leaders, whoever they are at the time, will be able to sign a peace deal with Israel and they won't need to fear that they would meet Sadat's fate.

    When will such a time arrive? I don't know. I don't think anyone can know. But here is a thought for you: Before WW1 and WW2, the European peoples too glamorised war, like the Arabs of today. It took two world wars and the death of over 50 million people (probably more) to cure them of their lust for wars.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  11. #26
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Post WW2 all of Europe was flattened. The post war empires collapsed. The North African and mideast region was not much better off. And yet the Maghreb and the mideast hasn't progressed. The economic productivity of the 360 million Arabs is less than the productivity of 60 million Italians. There were 17 patents filed from Egypt last year. My COMPANY filed 3,000. Clearly whatever else is in play, their societies, their economies their political institutions are broken.

  12. #27
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Reffo,

    I beg to differ comparing Europeans pre WW1/2, even violent Europeans, with Arab Muslims. The Europeans were educated, somewhat secular for the most part and had well formed not overly corrupt institutions. I would say that even the Europe of the dark ages is culturally and socially more stable than the Arab countries today. The Arabs are mired in fantastic superstition to this day, even though we have a global civilization based on science, technology and interdependent economics.

    They also have no developed ethical tradition. They claim they do, but it's vendetta all the time and every time, that is to say 100% honor/shame culture. That is why a European Christian woman can readily marry a Muslim but shahid help them, not the reverse.

    We should be cognizant of who and what our adversaries in the Middle East are, and not promote them to normal, ajusted people in 1st world nations. They rape, pillage, lie and steal as a matter of cultural course. All that Islam has corrected for is that they are told to do that to people outside their nation, or umma. Business as usual.

    What trends do we see in the ME that reverse this? If anything, in 50 years it will be even worse! AQ style insanity (not mixing vegetables on stands because of their "gender") is catching on slowly but surely. More Arab women today are in burqas than 10 years ago.

    I'll say it: nothing but complete forceful mind wiping will make these people abide with western conventions, i.e., peace treaties. Their leadership... as cynical as always and just as paranoid and ignorant as the am adama.

    Even the most avowed liberals (i linked Barry Rubin's discussion about the so called Egyptian Liberal/blogger "Sandmonkey") cannot be taken seriously in the street w/o attacking Israel, Jews, or the already weak (and worthless) peace treaty between our countries. None of this bodes well... and there is absolutely no contending trends of any magnitude that I've been able to detect that would mitigate it.

  13. #28
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu
    I beg to differ comparing Europeans pre WW1/2, even violent Europeans, with Arab Muslims. The Europeans were educated, somewhat secular for the most part and had well formed not overly corrupt institutions.
    I grant you this: There never is 100% comparison between ANY thing or ANY people. There are always differences but equally, there are similarities too. What I was talking about is that I believe that ANY human being has the capacity to reach a point when they say "ENOUGH"! "I don't want to suffer any more from a war that destroys everything including me and mine ...." Call it selfishness if you want, bararallu, but any human being WILL reach that point sooner or later.

    Now a word about European civilisation (it HAS to be said): They produced Nazism and Communism. So let's not get carried away with the idea of European enlightenment. If they could grow to detest wars, which they seem to for now at least, the Arab peoples could reach that point too when most of them really start feeling the effects of war on their own skins, first hand, not just reading about it in Al Jazeera ...
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  14. #29
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Any human being may Reffo, living in individualistic first world countries that certainly resonates.

    That said, "Arabs" are a conglomerate of human beings, living in their own societies. They have thousands of years of cultural inertia and social conditioning. It is embedded in their daily fabric of life. We see it in stark detail when they move to 1st world countries e.g., a Pakistani MD kill his daughter for taking a gentile boyfriend in the UK, or rape of Christian girls because they may deem them dressing skimpy in Australia.

    Those are the cultural mores that are at great variance with Western practice. In the West, there at least is hope (barring multiculturalism) that individual Muslim Arabs *will acculturate* and abandon their misogyny, honor/shame cult and so on. You cannot expect that to happen in their societies, in the Middle East. To expect that is abandonment of reality.

    All of those cultural and social values contribute to a notion of a nation willing and able to make peace. Nothing, absolutely nothing we've witnessed in modern times tells us we have any serious takers for a prosperous and safe Middle East. They envy us, and they cannot do what we do- they cant imagine it possible.

    BTW, I didn't mean to stress the variance of Europeans vs Arabs, just the fairly universal factors that put them on different trajectories.

  15. #30
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    Re: make peace with the Arab peoples, not just the rulers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu
    BTW, I didn't mean to stress the variance of Europeans vs Arabs, just the fairly universal factors that put them on different trajectories
    I am not arguing against your idea about different trajectories. I am disagreeing with you, however, if you claim that the Arab peoples somehow do not get influenced by self preservation in the same way that Europeans do/did.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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