Roots of the conflict

[takeo]

the current policy of Israel fits in any definition of fascism.
The PA aren't terrorists and will never fit in any definition of terrorism, even if they would commit violent acts towards the occupation force, because they live in occupied territory.
But whatever you label them, palestinian resistance is not going to stop by killing the pa and Arafat, on the contrary it will increase untill Israel is ready to make peace. Israel can be destroyed, the palestinian people can only fysically be destroyed id Israel want to eliminate palestinian resistance, and if Israel goes that far it will be destroyed by a worldwide coalition.
no, lomplighter you express anti-arab racism and hatred, so that makes you an anti-semite. (Arabs are semits, remember?)

[L@mplighterM]

Arabs are not refered to as semites anymore. The UN wanted to bring the classification back but it didn't wash.

Actually it's Muslims that are causing all the trouble in the world.

I'll tell you this though in one of your posts you advocated or came close to promoting genocide of jews. Self-defense is one thing but outright murder is quite another story.

You are giving the Palestinians justification to commit murder and I believe you may just have hung yourself.

My beef with the Arabs is that:

1.They commit terrorist acts

2.They do not pressure Arafat to stop violence.

That is why they make shitty neighbours.

[takeo]

Every sociologist, antropologist and linguist in the world will agree that both arabic and hebrew are semitic languages and that both are semitic people. One can't "loose" its status to be semitic or germanic or whatever (only the nazi's thought so that you could loose your status of being a Germanic people if you mixed too much with Jews, etc. , so in his mind the english and americans "lost" their status of Germanic nation, completely bullshit of course)



"I'll tell you this though in one of your posts you advocated or came close to promoting genocide of jews. Self-defense is one thing but outright murder is quite another story. "

in which post did i promote genocide of jews??????????????
I hope this time you can proove your statement, not like the statement you made about "burka's in the Qoran". (but i'm pretty sure you can't, i would never ever promote such an idea)
You suggested however on several occations that the Palestinians don't belong in the area between the Jordan and the sea.

"You are giving the Palestinians justification to commit murder and I believe you may just have hung yourself. "

i didn't, i only said that killing occupiing force (military or armed militia) or political responsables is legitimated in war-fare according to international law, not murder against civilians.

"My beef with the Arabs is that:

1.They commit terrorist acts

2.They do not pressure Arafat to stop violence.

That is why they make shitty neighbours."

1) Israel does so too, it started its terrorism and repression in the occupied territories in 1967 and never quitted since (with some brief interpause in the 90's)

2) Arafat pressures his population to be patient and pacific! But it is difficult if your life has been destroyed because you belong to the wrong etnic group.

Israel is a shitty neighbour of the Palestinians and Arabs since the beginning, it is not one-sided! if you are the neighbourhoods bully taking posetions of your neighbours, than of course you shouldn't expect them to say "well, no problem man, let's be friends".

[L@mplighterM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.

In this post you give the Palestinians justification for their terrorism. In this post you support killing of innocent jewish civilians world wide.

These people are where they are because of the leadership provided to them by their leaders.

[raven]

Its time for the US to stop "parsing" the term Terrorist. If they dont, it was become apparant to decent people that killing of Jews is OK and purposely not classified as Terrorism but killing of their own-- IS. The US will lose any moral high ground and THEN we can then start discussing if this is a replay of the 30's. Who knew we were about to be murdured and who didnt care? Who pretended that we were exagurating? How close in mentality and tactics is the world, including the US to the events in the 30's? We have not opened up the subject but if this goes on it is TIME TO DO SO.

[raven]

In case anyone does NOT know by this time about the 30's before WW2-- and who knew what and when they knew it and who apparantly didnt give a hoot in h-ll. Here it is in a nutshell.

All during the 30's citizens of all the Western Countries, at the highest level, interacted with citizens of Germany. They did business, socialized etc. They HEARD from the mouths of these people what their attitudes were and increasingly heard the people in charge of Government planning to do just what they did in some manner. No surprises. Not really.

Next--The Allies broke the German Code almost immediately.(early 1942) They listened in from the beginning. So that had a good picture of what the mentality was. Heard quite a bit of the plans.

Furthermore, this was the 1930s and 40s NOT the 1400s. Many people living in Germany and Eastern Europe wrote LETTERS to their relatives all over the world and said exactly what was happening. Others, not Jews, in those small towns were talking about what was happening on Market Day and to their own relatives in other countries-- as well. Somehow...(just like now) people purposely ignored what was going on or minimized it and somehow even mentioning what was happening equaled "UnAmerican and Selfish". Jews were encouraged to keep quiet or there would be a "backlash" or we would mess up the War Effort. We are hearing the exact same thing right now.

Time to scream and yell. Time to take charge of the word- Terrorist -and what it really means.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by raven
Its time for the US to stop "parsing" the term Terrorist. If they dont, it was become apparant to decent people that killing of Jews is OK and purposely not classified as Terrorism but killing of their own-- IS.

Excatly right, raven.

There is no "good" or accpetable terrorism. It is all the same.

But it is up to Israel not to reply on the US or anyone else's favors to define terrorism. Israel needs to act in its own interests and begin an all-out assault on Arab terrorism, just like the US is doing to defend US citizens.

[L@mplighterM]

Right on!!!!!!!!!!! Who knows they might get lucky and plug a certain propagandanist that sounds almost as bad as Goebels,

[raven]

The last time I heard the President and the Administration they are still "qualifying" the word "Terrorist" when applied to many of the Palistinians and their groups. {not so in India or the Pillipines} These people and groups are much the same, allied with each other, and they know it.

The word they are using is "unique". As in "the ME and what is going on there is-- unique." This is code for "violence against Jews in Israel has different qualities and a semi legitimate root cause, and isnt quite the same as what is happening in other parts of the world and definately NOT the same as what is happening to Americans."

Why we are only objecting to this in private is beyond me. We need to define THAT kind of qualifying as modern and a new form "anti-semetism". Holding Jews to a different sets of standards and behaviors IS and always has been --antisemetism.

As we stand today, the Saudis are playing hardball. They threaten to take all their oil and other business and transfer the bulk of it to the EU. (This has been the threat for 70 years now) if the US doesnt do what they want--in alot of areas, especially with Israel and the Palistinians. This will cause the US to immediately find some reason to stay with Arafat OR if not humanly possible they will annoint some new Palistinian as a leader and ascribe all the best qualities to him, true or not, (the best tactic would to chose a woman to represnt the Pals) and start all over again. Then they will dare us to object to the leader that they appoint.

It is time for us to play hardball also or (simple as this) we arent going to survive as an independent people on par with other peoples, living in ANY country. We should not accept the under the radar intimidation ( Do what we want or we may not be kindly disposed to Israel) that has been going on. It doesnt work to "keep quiet". Reports of Antisemetic incidents in France shows this and recently, reports that it is now rather acceptable to make outright Antisemetic statements in the best of company in GB- shows what happens when we dont speak up. I thought that we had learned that.

[takeo]

"The last time I heard the President and the Administration they are still "qualifying" the word "Terrorist" when applied to many of the Palistinians and their groups. {not so in India or the Pillipines} These people and groups are much the same, allied with each other, and they know it.
The word they are using is "unique". As in "the ME and what is going on there is-- unique." This is code for "violence against Jews in Israel has different qualities and a semi legitimate root cause, and isnt quite the same as what is happening in other parts of the world and definately NOT the same as what is happening to Americans."

Yes, this definition is right. If Israel wouldn't be occupiing the occupied territories and confirm the un-resolutions, than it would not be right to treat palestinian terrorism (by the way the PA is NOT a terrorist group but a recognised government) otherwise than other terrorist groups, however as long as Israel is a terrorist state itself, then can't compare palestinian resistance to terrorist groups as Al-Quaida. You will also note that the liberation front of Southern Morocco and (previously) the eastern Timor liberation front were never integrated on this list, because they fight against foreign and internationally condamned occupation and terrorism as well. In other words: they are conducting self-defense.

"Why we are only objecting to this in private is beyond me. We need to define THAT kind of qualifying as modern and a new form "anti-semetism". Holding Jews to a different sets of standards and behaviors IS and always has been --antisemetism. "

Of course i forgot that any criticism on killing and destroying palestinians is anti-semitism.

Sharon and his extremist friends will never accept any palestinian leader, as their ultimate gaol is to evict all palestinians from the sea to the Jordan river.


"It is time for us to play hardball also or (simple as this) we arent going to survive as an independent people on par with other peoples, living in ANY country. We should not accept the under the radar intimidation ( Do what we want or we may not be kindly disposed to Israel) that has been going on. It doesnt work to "keep quiet". Reports of Antisemetic incidents in France shows this and recently, reports that it is now rather acceptable to make outright Antisemetic statements in the best of company in GB- shows what happens when we dont speak up. I thought that we had learned that."

The policy of Israel will lead to more anti-semitism and playing hard-ball will have very hard consequences, not only for the palestinians(destruction) but as well for Israel.
besides anti-semitism in Europe is nothing compared to anti-arab racism in Europe (and the US for that matter) stop whining about anti-semitism, i know that is not really a problem in europe, however the occupation and etnic cleansing policy of Israel is a real problem for Israel, the Palestinians and the entire world

[takeo]

lomplighter, did you just wish me death?

"[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.

In this post you give the Palestinians justification for their terrorism. In this post you support killing of innocent jewish civilians world wide.
These people are where they are because of the leadership provided to them by their leaders."

This people are where they are because of Israel's expansion-policy, and this policy is also the reason of palestinian terrorism.
i didn't gave a legitimation, i said that they conduct in such way because of what israel did to them, not because they "are animals, etc." I didn't say it was the good thing to do, on the contrary i condamned such acts, but i said the origin of such irresponsible acts is in the irresponsible policy of israel. If someone would kill my sister it would be wrong of me to kill this murderer, however if i would kill him it would be a consequence of his act.
besides Israel has the same lunatic reprisals as the extreme-wing palestinians. Palestinians kill innocent people at a girl's party because israels policy destroyed their lifes, houses and killed their brothers, israel destroys the harbour and radio installations and destroys houses of innocent people because some extremist palestinian killed innocent people. Both take reprisals on the wrong people.






"Its time for the US to stop "parsing" the term Terrorist. If they dont, it was become apparant to decent people that killing of Jews is OK and purposely not classified as Terrorism but killing of their own-- IS. The US will lose any moral high ground and THEN we can then start discussing if this is a replay of the 30's. Who knew we were about to be murdured and who didnt care? Who pretended that we were exagurating? How close in mentality and tactics is the world, including the US to the events in the 30's? We have not opened up the subject but if this goes on it is TIME TO DO SO."

The comparisation to the 30's is fake, unless you compare israel to nazi-Germany. the palestinians are a little oppressed people who are persecuted by a powerfull regional power and a super-power ally. Nazi-germany was an important regional power with important allies that oppressed little people in eastern Europe and the jews. in both cases the lack of engagement of the West (only in words) was deathly for the oppressed.
All during the 30's citizens of all the Western Countries, at the highest level, interacted with citizens of Germany. They did business, socialized etc. They HEARD from the mouths of these people what their attitudes were and increasingly heard the people in charge of Government planning to do just what they did in some manner. No surprises. Not really.
The same applies to Israel, everyone knows where sharon stands for, and everyone know some people in the right-wing establishment of israel want to exterminate all palestinians "from the Sea to the jordan", still the western countries don't really react, except in words (they did the same during the spanish civil war and in the 30's, however no real mesures were taken).
people know what was happening, and today they know it as well, we can see it on television, we can hear it on this board. Some people inside israel are critical but their voices are not heard. Palestinian Israeli have to keep quiet or face deathly repression as happened some months ago, more and more extremists are willing to target them too. (someone here on this board said they should be separated from the Jews, i forgot who it was, probably lomplighter) .
Also both nazi-Germany and Israel label themselves as "victims" of an Arab or jewish conspiration to destroy them. this was a legitimation for a repression policy against neighbouring countries and etnic minorities.
of course the comparisation is not total, the nazi's were still a lot more extremist than the leadership in Israel, and germany was of course a more dangerous power than little Israel, however what we see here are similar fascist views and policies, and it is incomprehensible for me that Jews, who suffered so much in the hands of fascists, can approove this.

[L@mplighterM]

I'm a pacefist takeo I don't wish anyone dead.

What gives you the idea that I would want to see anyone dead that gives justification to evil people for the killing of men, women, children and the unborn??????????????????

How can you ask such a thing??????

I have to admit that I would't feel bad if a fellow Muslim of yours stuck a AK47 up your *** and pulled the trigger I think the world would be a little better place.

But no I don't wish anyone dead that would be against my beliefs.

I'll tell you this though you sure the hell didn't read the same history books as me and I know you Arabs write your own perverse interpretation of history. You fill in gaps that you think sound good and then you attempt to brainwash the west with lies.

Who's King Salem???????????????? Who controlled Jerusalem prior to 1967??????????? Let's hear your BS.

[raven]

Lamp: The newest version of History is that the Arabs occupied the United States before the Native Americans. Oops. Here we go in America. Its just a small voice now, but you can depend on this rediculous version of history to grow.

Wherever you are in this world, it seems, that the Arabs were there first and will claim your territory and if you dont give it up...then they will kill you. Flat out. And this is the way it has indeed been going. In India, in China, In Russia, In Israel, In Eastern Europe...help Im losing count already.

Im gonna say it...the elevator does go to the top with these people. And thats a problem. Outright nuts having their hands anywhere close to Nukes.

And it seems, we arent really going after Terrorists at all. Somalia? Give me a break. Not Iran, Iraq, the Pals, SAUDIS, Egypt, Syria?????shoot.

[raven]

Posted twice...dont know why so erased it.

[L@mplighterM]

Raven *LOL* That's funny. Hate to think what the future will bring,