May It Not Happen Again!

[Parsi]

No. Please continue. And make sure you ignore the place of women in Orthodox Judaism and in the Vatican and in Hinduism and in Mormonism.

Wrong approach.
First I don't have enough knowledge of those religions and wouldn't want to pretend so.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right.
Thirdly, Islam claims to be the ultimate (most complete) religion of all. What's the point of a new religion if it's to follow the same power-orientated principle of the older religions.

It isn't hidden at all. The misrepresentation of this verse is publicly available to all non-believers. I'd be surprised if everyone doesn't know about that and our "moon worship"...

It's not the question of misrepresentation, mistranslation, or misinterpretation. Some of the very fundamental teachings of Quran is based on hatred and intolerance and this in itself has been a threat to my life. You may be a nice law-abiding gentleman who believes in civility, but there are those who go by the book and want to dominate the world at any cost.

[bararallu]

Hog wash. A super religious Jewish Woman can spit in her husbands eye, drive away in her own car, get to a civil court void her marriage, eventually force her husband via Rabbinical court to give her a religious divorce if she wants it; she can publically become an atheist or convert to another religion even, if that's what she wants; she can burn her hair net or any clothes she wants and go around in a bikini in her own neighborhood, and get custody of all her children to boot, this is in Jerusalem/Israel.... All of that is LEGAL and do-able, and some in fact do it.

In juxtaposition- lets go across the border to Cairo Egypt or Amman Jordan or any sand dune in Saudi Arabia... and try that with a Muslim woman. Her own brother or father would catch her and put a bullet in her head just not to "disgrace" the family. nice try at moral equivalence though. Israel is a western country with real morals not a shame based society that keeps women in bonds, any woman can get up and leave their traditional life on her terms just like Amish women can, or any nun can, or any other Luddite in the rest of the West can.

[andak01]

Wrong approach.
First I don't have enough knowledge of those religions and wouldn't want to pretend so.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right.
Thirdly, Islam claims to be the ultimate (most complete) religion of all. What's the point of a new religion if it's to follow the same power-orientated principle of the older religions.

That's our own claim as adherrents to the faith. Western globalization also claims to be the most complete lifestyle of all. I think it's time for all this absolutism to drop by the wayside. It's killing people everyday.

There is something to be learned in a culture where there is a > 50% divorce rate and where schoolchildren go on shooting sprees, which children are killed for their sneakers and where some tens of thousands women are raped each year. There is something to be learned in a culture where 2000 highschool aged kids are in prison for life without parole, where more people are imprisoned per capita than in any other Western country.

In 2005, there were 191,670 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assaults according to the 2005 National Crime Victimization Survey (PDF, 287KB).

It is this culture, the one that proposes torture and spying as a solution to security that looks down its nose and claims a moral highground against Islam. Laughable.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html

It's not the question of misrepresentation, mistranslation, or misinterpretation. Some of the very fundamental teachings of Quran is based on hatred and intolerance and this in itself has been a threat to my life. You may be a nice law-abiding gentleman who believes in civility, but there are those who go by the book and want to dominate the world at any cost.

I go by the Book too. There isn't anything in the Quran that permits me to kill innocent women and children to achieve any aim whatsoever. In fact, there is plenty to prohibit it. There isn't a word in the Quran that justifies killing a Jew or anyone else who isn't actively attacking Muslims. There isn't a word in the Quran that justifies disrespect or mistreatment of women. You can take that to the bank. It's a fact.

[Abdul Rahman]

...

Dont underestimate what non-muslims can learn about Islam.

Try this for starters then...

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women."

From YOUR link.
But then my contention (and that of the scholars of Islam) is that you can pile up all this decontextualised evidence untill it reaches the moon. Until you are trained to process it properly your conclusions are worthless. So until you start taking your Islamic knowledge from actual Sunni scholars of the four madhabs you actually know nothing about Islam.

...I'd be surprised if everyone doesn't know about that and our "moon worship".

That's right we worship the moon anyone could tell you that.

... You can take that to the bank. It's a fact.

What has that got to do with anything? We don't know anything about our own religion, they know better than we do.

[Abdul Rahman]

.,..
Some of the very fundamental teachings of Quran is based on hatred and intolerance and this in itself has been a threat to my life. You may be a nice law-abiding gentleman who believes in civility, but there are those who go by the book and want to dominate the world at any cost.

You have yet to prove the Islamic basis for those actions. Asserting that it has an Islamic basis just because it was done by Muslims really does not stack up. You are essentially calling Andak a guy that picks what he wants from this Deen, which is really quite insulting just so that you can maintain your illusion that Islam is a barbaric and hate filled religion.

You are yet to respond to my contentions from the great scholars of Islam, that every deviant sect uses the sources especially the Qur'an to justify their deviance. Yet they do it in a selective and ignorant way. Show me how the sects that you describe are not doing just that?

[Abdul Rahman]

This is what an isnad (chain) looks like for someones ijaza(license)...

01. Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allah ta'ala alayhi wa sallam)
02. Hazrat Imam Ali bin Abi Talib (Karrama Allah wajhah)
03. Hazrat Sayyid Imam Hussain (Alayihis-salam)
04. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Zain al-Abideen
05. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir
06. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Jafar as-Sadiq
07. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Musa al-Kazim
08. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Ali al-Ridha
09. Hazrat Shaikh Sayyid Maruf al- Karkhi
10. Hazrat Shaikh Sayyid as-Sari as-Saqati
11. Hazrat Shaikh Abul Qasim al-Junaid Baghdadi
12. Hazrat Shaikh Abu Bakr ash-Shibli
13. Hazrat Abdul Wahid at-Tamimi
14. Hazrat Shaikh Abul Faraj at-Tarsusi
15. Hazrat Shaikh Abul Hasan al- Quraishi (Hakkari)
16. Hazrat Abu Said al- Mukharrimi (Makhzumi)
17. Hazrat Sayyiduna Abdul Qadir Jilani
18. Hazrat Sayyid Abd ar-Razzaq
19. Hazrat Sayyid Abu Salih Nasr
20. Hazrat Sayyid Muhi-uddin Nasr
21. Hazrat Sayyid Ali
22. Hazrat Sayyid Musa
23. Hazrat Sayyid Hassan
24. Hazrat Sayyid Ahmad Jilani
25. Hazrat Shaikh Baha-uddeen
26. Hazrat Ibrahim Irji
27. Hazrat Shaikh Bhikari (dont know real name or the anecdote behind his laqab)
28. Hazrat Qazi Zia-uddeen
29. Hazrat Jamal-ul-Aulia
30. Hazrat Sayyid Muhammad Kalpavi
31. Hazrat Sayyid Ahmad
32. Hazrat Shah Fazlullah
33. Hazrat Shah Sayyid Barkatullah
34. Hazrat Sayyid Ale Muhammad
35. Hazrat Sayyid Hamza
36. Hazrat Sayyid Ale Ahmed
37. Hazrat Sayyid Ale Rasul Ahmedi *
38. Hazrat Sayyid Abul Husain Ahmad Nuri
39. Sheikh Ahmad Raza Khan
40. Sheikh Dhia-ud-Deen
41. Sheikh Abdus Salam
42. Sheikh Waqar-ud-Deen
43. Sheikh Ilyas Attar Qadiri (my current sheikh, lives in Karachi and Dubai)

May Allah preserve the current sheikh and bless the souls and raise the ranks of all those preceeding him.

* nephew of sheikh above him, adopted Ahmadi after his uncle/sheikh's name, nothing to do with Ahmadi-ism maadh'Allah, the blessed sheikh passed away 1296 Hijri, the Ghulam Ahmad la3natullahi alaih died 1325 Hijri.

This is for the sheik of one of my friends. Without one of these, anyone who tries to teach anything about Islam from their own knowledge is just leading people astray. So Parsi, your contentions about authority have no basis, since this is a well established system that is virtually impossible to forge. All a believer or interested person needs to do is find out if a person can produce one of these or not.

[Parsi]

Andark01 & Abdul Rahman, I'll come back and respond to your post in about 8 hours time.

[redcake]

In the meantime, that will give you some time to respond to these verses pertaining to women's rights, and the rights of young girls. There is an institutionalized abuse sanctioned by clerics, and there is absolutely no defense for it. So you can fall back on the lamest defense ever, by talking about other religions, or quoting statistics for how depraved American society is, but it doesn't explain why these verses are being used in Muslim communities in Muslim Sharia courts to abuse women and children under the protection of Islam. Two major sects believe in it, and one doesn't. So how can you say it doesn't exist or pretend it's a fabrication by non-believers?


Sunni
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/S...Option=FatwaId
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/S...Option=FatwaId
http://saaid.net/Doat/Najeeb/f122.htm
http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/D...Doc=0&Rec=7644

Shi'ite
http://www.rafed.net/books/fegh/menhaj3/menhaj1.html
http://www.ansar.org/arabic/radee3ah.htm
http://www.alshirazi.com/compilation...at/part7/1.htm
http://www.makaremshirazi.org/books/...esaleh/r26.htm

[Agnosthiest]

Try this for starters then...

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women."

From YOUR link.

(wow thats like dealing with the disabled. they are broken "so I urge you to take care of them")

And you agree with that. Amazing what religion can do to people. As if Women are more crooked than men. Take a look at prisons, man! Arent there a lot more men than women? From China to Pakistan to Chile. I tell you we guys are more screwed.

But then my contention (and that of the scholars of Islam) is that you can pile up all this decontextualised evidence untill it reaches the moon. Until you are trained to process it properly your conclusions are worthless. So until you start taking your Islamic knowledge from actual Sunni scholars of the four madhabs you actually know nothing about Islam.

You wish.

[andak01]

There is an institutionalized abuse sanctioned by clerics, and there is absolutely no defense for it.

You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I am pleased whenever I hear of Muslim women's rights groups which point out the errors in interpretation by using Islamic scholarship to prevent abuse of women.

So you can fall back on the lamest defense ever, by talking about other religions, or quoting statistics for how depraved American society is, but it doesn't explain why these verses are being used in Muslim communities in Muslim Sharia courts to abuse women and children under the protection of Islam.

For the exact same reason that the Christian church allowed women to be abused for a thousand years.

Two major sects believe in it, and one doesn't. So how can you say it doesn't exist or pretend it's a fabrication by non-believers?

What I can say is that there are loud highly politicized Islamic groups trying to promote an extreme philosophy while at the same time being assisted by the Western media which thrives on their extremism. At the same time, there are Muslim women's rights groups and moderates like Hamsa Yusef who hardly get any press at all.

http://www.karamah.org/home.htm

http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects...rticleID=13562

http://www.islamic.org.uk/womright.html

http://www.feminismeislamic.org/eng/

[Agnosthiest]

It is this culture, the one that proposes torture and spying as a solution to security that looks down its nose and claims a moral highground against Islam. Laughable.

America is a well documented country. So a lot crimes are written down and reported. Heck they even classify forced sex within marriages as rape! And these things get reported too! Sure bloats the figures. So a document country with figures, compared to an undocumented country like Saudi Arabia without figures, that creates the illusion that the former is worst. But is it? Just look at the overall achievements between the two. Look at the rights given to its citizens. The opportunities available to a person. The person's opportunities to reach his/her potential.

Thats what makes the west morally higher than Islam. Thats why muslims love to go here even if they can hardly speak our language. Thats why you prefer to stay here. Right? You will never migrate to a muslim country because Islamic state practices suck.

[Agnosthiest]

What I can say is that there are loud highly politicized Islamic groups trying to promote an extreme philosophy while at the same time being assisted by the Western media which thrives on their extremism. At the same time, there are Muslim women's rights groups and moderates like Hamsa Yusef who hardly get any press at all.

Friend, the Media thrives on anything that is called a "Media Event". For moderates to attract attention they should created their own media event. How? Well maybe if you 'moderates' can gather by the thousands and condemn Saudi Arabia's inhumane practices. We would also love to see you by the thousands condemning the killing of muslim apostates.

What say you?

[andak01]

America is a well documented country. So a lot crimes are written down and reported. Heck they even classify forced sex within marriages as rape! And these things get reported too! Sure bloats the figures. So a document country with figures, compared to an undocumented country like Saudi Arabia without figures, that creates the illusion that the former is worst.

I didn't say Saudi Arabia. However, there are many, many more opportunities for rape to occur in a country where women routinely get drunk in public while wearing skimpy clothing versus a society where women dress modestly, tend to stay at home and are chaparoned whenever they are in public. If Saudi men are indeed committing more rapes, I'd be curious as to how they have an opportunity to do so.

But is it? Just look at the overall achievements between the two. Look at the rights given to its citizens. The opportunities available to a person. The person's opportunities to reach his/her potential.

Thats what makes the west morally higher than Islam.

It makes us morally higher than Ethiopia and the Congo and any other country that doesn't have the economy to afford leisure time. That's why the Romans under Caligula were Romans and the rest of the world were barbarians.

Thats why muslims love to go here even if they can hardly speak our language.

I venture that per capita many more Muslims speak the language than Mexicans. English is a second language in most of the Muslim world. In fact, most of the Muslims I know speak more than two languages.

Thats why you prefer to stay here. Right? You will never migrate to a muslim country because Islamic state practices suck.

I stay here because it's where I was born and where my family is. But in fact I may well retire to a Muslim country. I wouldn't like Saudi Arabia or Iran, but Dubai or Morocco wouldn't bother me a bit. There aren't any Islamic practices that bother me. It's so-called Sharia where the practices are in conflict with Islam that bother me.

[redcake]

Make up your mind Andak:

There isn't a word in the Quran that justifies disrespect or mistreatment of women. You can take that to the bank. It's a fact.

You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I am pleased whenever I hear of Muslim women's rights groups which point out the errors in interpretation by using Islamic scholarship to prevent abuse of women.

Are you sure it's an error of interpretation or just contradictory language which allows an observant Muslim to justify it. Either way, it exists, in the form of a scripture and not just from one or two crazy clerics.

At the moment, today, right now it's pretty clear how POPULARIZED and MAINSTREAM Islamic scriptures are being used for purposes of oppression instead of protecting human rights. By the way, since Christians aren't doing it on a massive instutionalized scale, today, right now, we're left with addressing Islam.....and the fact that the Muslims in this thread have denied the existance of religious inspired abuse towards Islamic women is really problematic and by default makes you part of the problem.

[Agnosthiest]

oops