May It Not Happen Again!

[Agnosthiest]

Female circumcision is, likewise; not an obligation.

Female circumcision however follows the muslim method of rationalization...

* what is worst disloyalty or light beating?

* what is worst a high crime rate or amputation?

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* what is worst female circumcision or adultery?

[andak01]

Female circumcision however follows the muslim method of rationalization...

There is very little rationalization at all. The vast majority of Muslims don't practice it and none of us are obligated to.

There is however a common rationalization among Islamophobes. Keep the Muslims from talking about any positive aspects of our religion and confine them into a box. Viz.

Reporter: Father tell us about Catholicism.

Priest: Well, we worship the Trinity.

Reporter: What about child molestation?

Priest: Some of our priests practiced that, but...

Reporter: Isn't that what Catholicism really is, a bunch of men going after little boys?

Priest: Well, no...

Reporter: Stop avoiding my questions! You pervert. Admit what it's all about!

Priest: We create orphanages, hospitals, give to charity...

Reporter: Why are you trying to change the subject? That's what all you Catholic perverts do!

[redcake]

These things are not obligations. They do not make up the core beliefs of Islam.

Do you they have to be core beliefs to exist? Do they have to be obligations before you ascribe these as Islamic traditions, or beliefs?

[Agnosthiest]

There is very little rationalization at all. The vast majority of Muslims don't practice it and none of us are obligated to.

but it seems the vast majority of practioners are muslims.

as for the rationale:



"it is narrated that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) advised a woman who did circumcision in Madeenah as to the proper way of circumcision"

"The Sunnah is not to cut all of it, but rather a part of it."

"The Shaafa’is, the Hanbalis according to the well-known view of their madhhab, and others are of the view that circumcising women is obligatory. Many scholars are of the view that it is not obligatory in the case of women; rather it is Sunnah and is an honour for them."

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref...20circumcision

SUNNAH = Non obligatory but advisable


"Men typically prefer a circumcised wife because they are considered more likely to be faithful."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm1.htm

What is worst, female circumcision or adulter.

Keep the Muslims from talking about any positive aspects of our religion and confine them into a box. Viz.

talk about them here:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=12585

Im still waiting there.

[andak01]

Do you they have to be core beliefs to exist? Do they have to be obligations before you ascribe these as Islamic traditions, or beliefs?

I don't think anyone's not being candid about what exists and what doesn't. There are practices that are fard (obligatory), practices that are sunna (recommended), practices that are makroo (not recommended) and practices that are haraam. In addition, there is the differentiation between Sharia as a legal system and fiqh as a recommended set of behaviors.

Mut'ah marriage is haraam among Sunnis. It may be permitted among Shiites, but I shouldn't and won't comment about them.

Misyar marriage is makroo. If it is being used to allow widows and older women to get married, that directly contradicts the Prophet's (SAW) example. If it is being used in lieu of adultry, that's equally as bad and as unIslamic. If the woman involved is marrying against her will, that I know runs counter to the Sunna.

Female circumcision is permitted. Female mutalation, or any mutilation of the body such as tatoos or piercing (including the Western fad of piercing the genitals) is haram. That said, in certain cultures, it is common.


One of the world's most prestigious health journals has lashed a fast-growing trend in the United States and Britain for "designer vaginas," the tabloid term for cosmetic surgery to the female genitalia.

The fashion is being driven by commercial and media pressures that exploit women's insecurities and is fraught with unknowns, including a risk to sexual arousal, the British Medical Journal (BMJ) says.

Known as elective genitoplasty, the surgery usually entails shortening or changing the shape of the outer lips, or labia, but may also include reduction in the hood of skin covering the clitoris [which amounts to female circumcision] or shortening the vagina itself.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[redcake]

Here's the thing, Andak... isn't it enough for you to conceed that female circumcision is permitted? ..... it's your choice to go on the defensive and respond to this discussion as if it stems from biased hatred rather then...oh I don't know...reality.

Again...why muddy the conversation by introducing the fringe topic of vaginal augmentation plastic surgery fads? Both involve a knife, and a woman's privates...and that's where the comparison stops. That adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, accept to divert from the topic in place of a rebutal. Female genital mutilation doesn't include tattoos or piercings.

See andak...

Ilham said her sisters were being subjected to infibulation, which is known as Pharaonic circumcision - the severest of three types of FGM, It involves the removal of genitalia and closure of the vaginal opening by stitching.

Around 82 percent of women in Sudan whose population is estimated at 40 million have undergone infibulation, while the total percentage of women who have undergone any form of FGM is over 90, said a 2004 study by the UN children's fund UNICEF.

The two other forms include the clitoridectomy, which involves full or partial amputation of the clitoris, and the "intermediate", which takes away the clitoris and a portion or all of the inner vaginal lips.

Under an Islamic guise, clitoridectomy is referred to also as Sunnah (tradition of the Prophet Mohammed) circumcision. However, more Christians in Sudan practise the Sunnah method than Muslims.

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php...4-054551-3992r

The BEST part is you don't have to worry about it! It's worse in Christian societies! Islam is off the hook then I guess huh? We can't use it as evidence of a gender bias in the Arab/Islamic world, and thank goodness it's not based on Muslim verses... or um....argh, oh drats....

Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: Ibn Al-Qayyem recounts that when Hagar married Abraham and got pregnant, Sara was very jealous of her. Because of her jealousy, she swore by Allah that she would cut off three of Hagar's body parts. Abraham was afraid that she would cut off Hagar's nose or ears, so he instructed her to pierce Hagar's ears and to circumcise her. This was the beginning of female circumcision in history.

[...]

In Egypt we have four and a half million spinsters. The definition of a spinster is a woman who has reached 30, without ever receiving a marriage proposal. We have a spinster problem in the Arab world, and the last thing we want is for them to be sexually aroused. Circumcision of the girls who need it makes them chaste, dignified, and pure

Read the whole debate.
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1090

[andak01]

Here's the thing, Andak... isn't it enough for you to conceed that female circumcision is permitted? ..... it's your choice to go on the defensive and respond to this discussion as if it stems from biased hatred rather then...oh I don't know...reality.

If it isn't an obligation, then the fact that it's permitted isn't of great importance. Forbidding it shouldn't cause any great scuffle. Forcing us to admit that Islam is barbaric because it's permitted would.

Again...why muddy the conversation by introducing the fringe topic of vaginal augmentation plastic surgery fads? Both involve a knife, and a woman's privates...and that's where the comparison stops.

The comparison stops with the fact that one is popular and western and sexy and the other is perceived to be anti-sex and anti-western. Nobody is holding up the example of a female with an infection from getting pierced genitals as barbaric. But the paintbrush is going over myself and my family over genital mutilation, even that we've never met anyone that practices it.

Nobody is calling strip clubs or escort services or kept women barbaric. But we are the barbarians, whether or not we practice or support Misyar marriages or even if we've heard of it or not.

That adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, accept to divert from the topic in place of a rebutal. Female genital mutilation doesn't include tattoos or piercings.

The BEST part is you don't have to worry about it! It's worse in Christian societies! Islam is off the hook then I guess huh? We can't use it as evidence of a gender bias in the Arab/Islamic world, and thank goodness it's not based on Muslim verses... or um....argh, oh drats...

Far from it. It's important that we all find the worst possible interpretation of a verse or two and refuse to take any other interpretation. It's important that we devote thread after thread to only those subjects and refuse to admit any other evidence. It's important that we characterize all Muslims by the actions of the most criminal. It is important to take worst obscure practices in their worst light and characterize them as the core elements of religion.

Can you imagine 300 posts on the subject The Debate over Why Jews Killed Jesus? 300 posts on the subject of IDF War Crimes? Such things exist, but it is neither constructive, nor instructive to dwell on those invectives. In fact, it would be rather dehumanizing for someone to show enthusiastic interest in that or refuse to allow a Jew to talk about anything else.

Read the whole debate.

The whole debate is summed up for you on MEMRI. And when you admit what you are, you'll be a lot happier.