What makes self-hating Jews tick?

[Kachah]

i grew up under joseph stalin, with:
"if your enemy does not surrender destroy him!" and
"better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"
this is the right mentality for a nation under siege, it is the mentality of the Holy Bible. unfortunately - not the mentality of the "jews". .

Yeah, just be careful there, calev dan - under Stalin EVERYBODY lived (and died BTW) on their knees and this was just a propaganda slogan. It's actually shaped the mentality of living on knees while the Jewish mentality was most of time standing tall.

[JerichoMissile]

im gonna be 100% honest here, i sometimes get annoyed or hateful because us jews as a whole are "too weak", we take it but we never give back, and im a right winger jew.
thats what i hate, if a jew gets bashed in america, what happens, he goes to court and tries to sue the other guy right? where as if some non jew was bashed, his mates would bash his attacker etc..., but this dosent happen with us jews does it? because we are still 'weak', as a group, or you could say we are "smart" because if we took revenge we would be the ones going to jail, if a synagogue in the usa got a molotov through the window, what would happen, nothing, the jews would rebuild and say its a shame, and not take revenge , even if they knew who did it? ot they would take revenge in court, as thats our way, not with guns or fists.

If a black church got attacked but a group of skin heads, the blacks would take revenge and attack the skin heads headquarters, right?

even israel which has a great army, is scared to use it power to defend its own people, this is what i "hate"

[farmboy]

The post by calev dan includes a very good link and explains the two types of Jews that there appears to be. The never again passive, I hope the crock eats me last type and the never again, come one step closer and you're history type. Peres is an example of the first and Danny Danon the latter. Israels final status will not be decided by the Peres's but by the Danons when the time is right.

[Aliyah1995]

Another self-hating Jew I would add to the list is Larry Derfner. I wouldn't have before a few days ago (I thought he was just a typical naive leftist), but since his justification of terrorism against fellow Israeli CIVILIANS I would now add him to the list.

[Mediocrates]

I don't consider Larry Derfner or people like Daniel Barenboim or Gilad Atzmon to be Jewish. They're just plain old antisemities. Like our long gone 'takeo' poster here - nothing more than people who have Jewish ancestors.

[Aliyah1995]

Truth be told, according to Jewish law, once a Jew, ALWAYS a Jew. Derfner, Barenboim, Atzmon might not be Jew of the year, but they are still Jews (assuming they were all born of Jewish mothers). That being said, I would hope NONE of them would be welcomed in any shul or Jewish community with even a semblance of self-respect.

[Mediocrates]

A glitch in the law. If they can excommunicate Spinoza they can throw these losers out too.

[johnvonneumann]

It is an oversimplification to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism and "self-hatred". In fact, even now there is an anti-Zionist undercurrent among some Haredim, the most in-famous example being Neturei Karta. Now, I find them quite appalling but it is quite incorrect to call them "self-hating". My father and uncle were born brought up in a Jewish town in Eastern Poland before the war (they only spoke Yiddish as children and learned Polish only in high school) and well remembered the hostility that existed then between the Hassidic Jews and the Zionists, that even took violent form.
And even someone like Noam Chomsky, the idiot that he is, can't be considered a self-hating Jew - he is in fact very proud of his Jewish background - in his own way, of course. So are many of the others on your list.
On the other hand, cardinal Lustiger, who was a Catholic convert (both of his parents were atheists) and a very close collaborator of Pope John Paul II, always considered himself a Jew and was the strongest supporter of Israel the entire Catholic Church - in fact his position on Israel often put him at odds with the Church which preferred to take a more "neutral" stand.
Until his death he continued to stress his Jewishness. Ironically it was the liberal Abraham Foxman who attacked him for his conversion, while the World Jewish Congres praised him on his death as one of the closest friends of the Jewish people.
There are, of course, many genuine self-hating Jews. There is no better example than the great chess genius and former world champion Bobby Fisher. In fact, the Wikipedia article is not correct in one respect, it states that only Fisher's mother was Jewish, but after his death an FBI file revealed that his biological father also was a Jew (and not a German as had been thought previously). He thus appears on the list of the Jewish chess world champions. He also is perfectly suited to appear on any list of history's worst anti-semites, right next to Adolf Hitler (who probably was not a Jew) and Karl Marx (who was).

[Mediocrates]

NK isn't really Jewish either. Not in any way that means anything. They're a cult. Every faith has them. As far as modern Jewish so called antizionism, Elmer Berger is the model for that. Rabbi Berger was close the to Truman administration but was eventually discarded by them, was a significant Jewish voice in the US in the 40's and 50's. Violently opposed to Israel in any way shape or fashion. It defies a clear rationale though. Fear? Fear of what? It would be easy to say fear of being singled out. After the Holocaust there were many Jews who just wanted to fade away. But I think also it's a kind of survivor's guilt. The feeling that the Elmer Bergers were safe fat dumb and happy in America. Fear that their new WASP friends wouldn't accept Zionism. Fear that somehow the existence of Israel lessened their 'status' as Jews in America. But Berger was a transitional figure between American Jews and Americans who had long distant Jewish ancestors, which was Berger's stated goal. This is where antizionism and antisemitism intersect. They don't simply detest Israel, they hate Jewishness.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/cont...gainst-zionism

More on Elmer Berger here.

[Aliyah1995]

It is an oversimplification to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism and "self-hatred". In fact, even now there is an anti-Zionist undercurrent among some Haredim, the most in-famous example being Neturei Karta.

I have already addressed this topic (anti-Zionism = anti-semitism) and NK, specifically, is mentioned in this thread:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...ism&highlight=

[johnvonneumann]

Thanks, I had not seen that thread. There is much in it that I agree with, but there is no doubt that before the war, the majority of the haredi opposed the creation of a Jewish state before the arrival of the Messiah. Whatever one thinks of these arguments is obviously nonsensical to consider them anti-Semitic or self hating. Since the creation of Israel, the majority of Haredi have modified their views, but the attitude is by no means one of universal and enthusiastic support. This is described, quite accurately in my opinion, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism.

Another source of opposition to Zionism was Marxism, which earlier in this century affected large numbers of Jews (not only Jews, of course). Marxists considered all nationalism as a purely bourgeois phenomenon that is going to disappear as mankind advances towards socialism and communism so Zionism, being a form of nationalism, was for them no exception. The majority of Jews who remained in Poland after the second world war were Marxists and they expected anti-semitism to disappear and Zionism also along with it. They were certainly in most cases not self-hating in any sense. These marxist ideas were, of course, proved entirely wrong, particularly by the communist run anti-semitic campaign of 1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Po...litical_crisis - the reason why my parents left Poland) but again these ideas had nothing to do with self-hatred. In fact, these Jews, as atheists (usually former communists) holding negative views of religion in general, tended to view Jewishness as a nationality or ethnicity and often had a stronger emotional attachment to Israel than those for whom Jewishness was primarily a question of religion. (The pretext for the anti-semitic campaign of 1968 were claims that Polish Jews sympathised with Israel during the 6 day war and thus showed themselves having "dual loyalty" and being a potential "fifth column").

Even today, a person with a generally negative view of nationalism cannot be expected to make an exception of Jewish nationalism and, if he is a Jew, his being opposed to all forms of nationalism, including Jewish one, does not make him a self-hating Jew. However, hostility towards Zionism, while taking a positive or neutral view of other nationalism (in particular Palestinian nationalism), is certainly anti-semitic. I think this is an important distinction that often seems to be forgotten.

[Aliyah1995]

johnvonneumann,

You make some good points in your last post. I understand there are Haredim who were opposed to the founding of Israel and are still opposed to Israel under STRICTLY religious reasons. However, MY issue is when they cross the red-line from having these beliefs to joining hands with Israel's enemies who have Jewish blood on their hands (or would have Jewish blood on their hands if they had their way). For example, when Neteuri Karta met with Iran's President who wants Israel wiped off the map and denies the Holocaust:

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Meet...hmadinejad.cfm

Even Satmar (not exactly the biggest fans of Zionism) called for a herem (excommunication of sorts) on NK. So, to me these are self-hating Jews.

Regarding Marxism, it is true that Marxism looked down on ALL nationalities, not just Zionism. However, these Marxist Jews generally frowned on their Jewish identity as well and just wanted to become "citizens of the world" (eeringly similar to the far-left movements of today, except that today's far-left movements have no problem going to bed with Islamic Fundamentalists). So, I would also consider them to be self-hating Jews, as they would throw away their Jewish identity to be just like everyone else.

[hanayon]

I have several theories for what makes self-hating Jews click:

1) The control factor: what this means is that there must be something we (Jews) are doing wrong and if we would only right it, Jewish hatred would go away. One of the most uncomfortable feelings in the world is when you feel like you have no control over anything. Admitting that our enemies hate us because we are Jews and that no matter what we do (or don't) they will continue to hate us is too much for many of our fellow Jews to bare. So how do they cope with it? By trying to capitulate to our enemies (for example, if only we would pull out of this territory or that territory or if only Israel stop insisting on being a "Jewish" state and just become a bi-national state, etc. etc.). Hence, the control factor. Peace is around the corner, if WE just do more, give more, behave more.

....

Hi Aliya and everyone! I used to be here years ago, had to drop out for mostly health reasons, used to be wellofvow. I want to thank Aliya (bravo!!) for bringing up this topic. I was born and lived in the States until I was 23, and then made aliya to a southern kibbutz through my "Labor Zionist Youth Movement". I recently found the discussion forum of those who are also alumni of this movement, and had an extremely rude shock after being the subject of repeated attacks, ad hominems, and even hate speech by my former chevre.... There are a very few other Israelis who are as bewildered as I by this sea-change that has come over American Jewry since we moved to Israel in the 1960s.

I have not read all the posts on this thread, but first of all, please, please, allow me to submit my own personal favorite as self-hating Jew: Jeff Halper. He is not as well known as many of the names brought up previously, but he is a real piece of work. And I also have my serious doubts that Amos Oz would qualify as a self-hating Jew.

Next, I would like to respectfully suggest to Aliya that it is less a "control" issue, at least as how you defined it above. When I read it, I just simply hear reverberating in my head "Diaspora mentality", which was a mantra of my Zionist youth group, and then the whiny voice "oy, what will the goyim think?" I think that all those who follow the Jews for Peace or J Street or Ameinu or many other groups that are springing up like toadstools are just whiny Jews who are worried about what the goyim will think if they say anything positive about Zionism, since the spinners on CNN long ago, and of course the vitriolic UN before them, turned the very word Zionism into a negative, nasty concept. So some of these "self-hating Jews" (and I am still bristling from my former youth group discussion forum attacks) even call themselves Zionists, but one of them strangely wrote me in a private post that being a Zionist meant that he was "obliged to criticize Israel", and that's how he defines Zionism. He is definitely not an anti-semite! He and two generations of American Jewry are just very, very confused.... I just can't wrap my head around these people (another wrote that on a scale of 1 to 3, 3 being "hostile", 2 being "neutral". and 1 being "friendly" that in his "nuanced perspective", the PA/PLO was "neutral". He said that he was "not aware" of any violent activity from the West Bank "recently" (whatever that means... The Fogel family was massacred in March, the central bus station was bombed also in March, and he made the statement before the taxi-hijacker ran into peole and then got out stabbing passersby.) These people go beyond the "naive" if they think they are Zionists and can write tripe like this. My opinion only, of course.

Which brings me to write that I am a bit concerned about equating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. I hasten to say that I am a 65 year old very traditional-type (read Ben Gurion) Zionist, meaning that there is a large dallop of labor-socialism in my make-up. I am a 3rd-generation Zionist, my very Orthodox grandmother being a founding member of Mizrachi Women in Cincinnati, my mother very active in "Pioneer Women" - now Naamat, one aunt very active in Hadassah, another aunt in Farband. To me, Zionism is as basic and fundamental as "If I forget thee O Jerusalem..." and "Lshana habaa bYerushalayim". These were as "real" to me as my aunt sending "care packages" to a cousin who escaped the Holocaust and made her way to Jerusalem. It was a positive concept, associated with building, nurturing, growing things. We experienced anti-semitism - our next door neighbors called my dad a "" (whatever that means anyhow), probably because he was told somewhere along the line that he lost his arm in WWII "defending the Jews", and my brother was often beaten up "for killing Christ" by an older boy down the street after coming back from his Catholic church.

So, because of these very old memories left behind in the land of the "golden gateless ghetto" as we used to call it, and living here in quaint Beer Sheva for 41 years now, I simply do not see how we can equate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. And besides, it's a losing proposition since we are often attacked for making this equation.....

And what in heavens does one do with people who insist that they are Zionists, and yet only attack Israelis and the Israeli government no matter what?? They always believe the Arab "narrative" (a word I loathe) and the Israeli government and Israelis are natural liars.

OK, bring it on! Wow, I have really missed you guys!

[johnvonneumann]

Well, there is one other element, in my opinion, that has been ignored in this discussion. For various historical reasons, the majority of Jews in Western Europe and the USA have generally "left-wing" political views. Also for historical reasons, the majority of Jews in Russia (including relatively recent immigrants) and the rest of former communist states, have, broadly speaking, "right-wing" views.

At the time of and for many years after its creation, Israel was run by left wing socialists (and, at the very beginning, was even supported by the Soviets), and it was the darling of the Western Left. Also, most Arab states were monarchies allied with the British, which served even more to make the old left sympathetic to Israel. All these things have been reversed. The reasons for this are complex and I don't want to try to go into this here, but the fact is that today, the left essentially everywhere has changed places with the right, embracing anti-Zionism and often virulent anti-semitism. Conversely, while there is still traditional right-wing anti-semitism on the right, it is gradually becoming weaker and increasingly parties and politicians that are called right wing are supportive of Israel. This has long been true of the US, but it is now becoming increasingly true of Europe - particularly Scandinavia (Norway's Progress Party, Finnish "True Finns" Party), Holland, Italy (Wilders, Gianfranco Fini) etc. In fact,most of these parties are not particularly right-wing on economic issues but they all share hostility to Muslim immigration and Islamism and with that support for Israel. There are, of course, still parties and movements that are both anti-immigration and strongly anti-semitic, the British BNP and the French Front National, for example, but on the whole, the right is now much more pro-Israeli than the left. This is also true outside Europe and the US - for example in India, the Hindu nationalists are strongly pro-Israel while the left tends to be pro-Arab etc.

For many Western Jews this is a major problem. They see the side that for them is "politically correct" turn against Israel and Zionism while those whom they have always feared and despised (particularly the Christian Right in the US) are now Israel's enthusiastic supporters. Some, like Alan Dershowits, while still remaining on the political left, find now themselves increasingly sharing common platform and aims with the political right (and find themselves increasingly hated and attacked by their former political comrades). Some former Jewish left-wingers have themselves gone over to the right, and now provide much of its intellectual backbone, but many choose to stick to their political and social milieu and persuade themselves that since all the "enlightened" people are against Israel and most of the "forces of darkness" on her side, Israel must be in the wrong. In thinking like that they are not showing self-hatred by simple conformism - one of the most common of human traits.