What makes self-hating Jews tick?

[dayag]

Hi Aliya and everyone! I used to be here years ago, had to drop out for mostly health reasons, used to be wellofvow...

Welcome back, Hanayon (wellofvow)!

[hanayon]

Welcome back, Hanayon (wellofvow)!

Thanks, dollink. Now, HOW can I post a new thread? I sent a message to Newsguy and Medio, hope they remember me. There are 3 of us here in Israel, all alumnae of this now off-the-wall youth movement and all here since the 1960s, and we are very concerned about something, and I would REALLY like to hear from people in Israel Forum, since I really respect you guys. yuck-that other forum was just plain nasty - and a PERFECT example of self-hating Jews, but they confusedly call themselves Zionists, which completely threw the three of us innocents (but not any more) off in the beginning. I'm trying to get them to look at Israel Forum, but the other one was so yucky that they may be gun-shy......

[Mediocrates]

I'm not an admin talk to dayag.

[dayag]

I'm not an admin talk to dayag.

This should be taken care of.

[Reffo]

I have several theories for what makes self-hating Jews click:

1) The control factor: what this means is that there must be something we (Jews) are doing wrong and if we would only right it, Jewish hatred would go away. One of the most uncomfortable feelings in the world is when you feel like you have no control over anything. Admitting that our enemies hate us because we are Jews and that no matter what we do (or don't) they will continue to hate us is too much for many of our fellow Jews to bare. So how do they cope with it? By trying to capitulate to our enemies (for example, if only we would pull out of this territory or that territory or if only Israel stop insisting on being a "Jewish" state and just become a bi-national state, etc. etc.). Hence, the control factor. Peace is around the corner, if WE just do more, give more, behave more.

....

That's a brilliant description of Akiva Orr's pronouncements on that other forum. And you wrote it before he posted those exact sentiments.

I just couldn't take the likes of him any more. They are automatons. They speak in monotone and say the same things over and over again. A discussion with them is impossible. It is like banging your head against the wall. And even that would make a bigger impact than talking to those misguided fools.

Believe me Aliyah, the Shayna's of this world don't worry me. They are a dime a dozen, primitive anti Semites. It's the Akiva Orrs of this world who worry me. They do our people immense harm. The funny thing is that they may not intend it and they certainly wouldn't admit to it, but they do immense harm.

[Aliyah1995]

Welcome back, Hanayon (wellofvow)! I actually remember you, even though you haven't posted for at least 3 years. Like you, I made aliyah at age 23, but have only been here since 1995 (hence my username) So compared to you, I just got off the plane yesterday. This might sound strange coming from someone who lives in Gush-Etzion, but stay safe!!!!

[Aliyah1995]

Reffo, I hear you and understand your frustration. I will still keep posting at 972 and poking holes in their naivety. Even though I will not get THEM to see reality, maybe a lurker or two will see reality. In my opinion, that will make it all worth it. I will never sink to their level and throw names around, I will keep being very civil when I post. Even with "Palestinian" I have been civil. Ironically, I can handle more doses of him than "Danny", who is supposedly Israeli. Regarding, Akiva, much as I vehemently agree with his views, he is actually more civilized and respectful when he posts than most of the 972 regulars. I will just continue to politely poke holes in his "single state, bi-national, etc." solution. I started with language, but that is HARDLY the only issue.

The only way I will stop posting at 972 is if they ban me. Otherwise I will be like a wart on their underside that won't go away

[Madeline]

Reffo, I hear you and understand your frustration. I will still keep posting at 972 and poking holes in their naivety. Even though I will not get THEM to see reality, maybe a lurker or two will see reality. In my opinion, that will make it all worth it.

That's all you can do, plant a seed.

[Aliyah1995]

That's all you can do, plant a seed.

Exactly!!!!

[Reffo]

Aliyah

I respect your single mindedness. Who knows, I might even rejoin you after I recuperate from the contamination

As for Akiva, he may be polite and respectful which he isn't really because he is subtly disrespectful, but that's not even the issue. The issue is that I have to grudgingly admit that he is very good at his job. He is the only reason, I repeat, the only one and only reason why I decided to leave that site. My fear with the likes of him is that he is more likely to persuade lurkers than the likes of me because he does not necessarily tell lies like many of the others. He just stretches the truths, simplifies the facts exaggerates Israeli ill doings, trivialises or neglects to mention Arab culpability and in general, weakens Israel's case and continually plants doubt. My advice to you Aliyah is to forget his facade of politeness and respect and think of the likes of him as your number one enemy. I am not suggesting that you shouldn't be polite to him. All I am saying is that you should remember who he is.

[hanayon]

Hi Reffo. I have been off-forum, as I said previously, for a long time, and been kind of self-involved out of necessity, so I got kind of lost in regard to several of your references, but this is my bad, certainly not yours.

That said, much of what you wrote conflues with a discussion I've been having with a few alumnae of a Zionist youth movement because of really toxic posts made on the "discussion forum" of the alumni of the movement.... One of us good ole girls mentioned an article by Shlomo Avineri in HaAretz (which I never read since I get really annoyed with their political slant) because the "discussion forum" started talking about "nuanced perspectives", and a light bulb went off in S.'s head, and by jove, I read the article and actually agreed with Avineri. Still not over the shock. I'm copying it plus some of my remarks to the goold ole girls below. Everything that you wrote about some "Akiva" are exactly what several of the toxic ones from the "discussion forum" are doing, only claim that there are different "perspectives", which Avineri more correctly calls "narratives".

Hope you enjoy the read once you get over the shock that it was in HaAretz and that it was written by Avineri. My own comments are my opinion, of course.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...8-war-1.368167



Published 03:01 17.06.11
Latest update 03:01 17.06.11

The truth should be taught about the 1948 war

Just as nobody, even in German schools, would dream of teaching the German 'narrative' regarding World War II, the 1948 war should also not be taught as a battle between narratives. In the final analysis, there is a historical truth.

By Shlomo Avineri


On September 1, 1939, Nazi Germany invaded Poland. That is truth, not narrative. On December 7, 1941, Japanese planes attacked and destroyed the U.S. Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. That is truth, not narrative.

Of course, there are also narratives. For example, the Germans had quite a few complaints against Poland. First, that in the 1919 Versailles Treaty, the victorious Western powers stripped Germany of territories with a large ethnic German population and annexed them to Poland (the "Polish corridor" ), while declaring Danzig, which had been a German city for generations, an international city. Moreover, Nazi Germany accused the Polish government of discriminating against ethnic Germans under its jurisdiction.

Not every claim in the German narrative was baseless, but the factual truth is clear: On September 1, 1939, it was Germany that attacked Poland, not Poland that attacked Germany.

There is also a Japanese narrative: The United States, together with Britain and Holland, imposed an embargo on the export of iron, steel and oil to Japan after the Japanese invasion of China. Japan suggested negotiating over these issues, but the U.S. refused, and Japan considered the embargo an act of aggression that threatened to paralyze its economy.

These were weighty claims, and it's impossible to ignore the fact that the American and British attitude contained a whiff of white racism against the rising "yellow" power in East Asia. But the truth is that on December 7, 1941, it was Japan that attacked the U.S., not the U.S. that attacked Japan.

Why is this important? In recent debates about the Palestinian "Nakba," the claim has been made that there are two "narratives," an Israeli one and a Palestinian one, and we should pay attention to both of them. That, of course, is true: Alongside the Israeli-Zionist claims regarding the Jewish people's connection to its historic homeland and the Jews' miserable situation, there are Palestinian claims that regard the Jews as a religious group only and Zionism as an imperialist movement.

But above and beyond these claims is the simple fact - and it is a fact, not a "narrative" - that in 1947, the Zionist movement accepted the United Nations partition plan, whereas the Arab side rejected it and went to war against it. A decision to go to war has consequences, just as it did in 1939 or 1941.

The importance of this distinction becomes clear upon perusing the op-ed that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas recently published in The New York Times. Abbas mentioned the partition decision in his article, but said not one single word about the facts - who accepted it and who rejected it. He merely wrote that "Shortly thereafter, Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs."

That is like those Germans who talk about the horrors of the expulsion of 12 million ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after 1945, but fail to mention the Nazi attack on Poland, or the Japanese who talk about Hiroshima, but fail to mention their attack on Pearl Harbor. That is not a "narrative," it is simply not telling the truth. Effects cannot be divorced from causes.

The pain of the other should be understood and respected, and attempts to prevent Palestinians from mentioning the Nakba are foolish and immoral: Nobody prevents the descendants of the German refugees from Eastern Europe from communing with their suffering.

But just as nobody, even in German schools, would dream of teaching the German "narrative" regarding World War II, the 1948 war should also not be taught as a battle between narratives. In the final analysis, there is a historical truth. And without ignoring the suffering of the other, that is how such sensitive issues must be taught.


I doubt that there are many who would dispute Prof. Avineri's "credentials" either as an academic or as a "liberal".

Nota Bene: what the knee-jerk "progressives" on Habonet term "perspective" or "nuance" is the "narrative" that Prof. Avineri is speaking of.

What is frustrating those of us who are true Zionists and truly pro-Israel is the inability of Habonet luminaries, Ameinu, J Street, much of worldwide academia, and most of the world to differentiate between historical fact (what actually happened) and "narrative" or "nuanced perspective" (a personal and anecdotal PERCEPTION of events), as Prof. Avineri states so clearly and eloquently with easy-to-understand analogies from history.

He is reminding us never to confuse narrative as fact in toto. Sometimes there might be fact within narrative, but narrative, per se, is anecdotal and very subjective perception. Yes, narrative is often important, but only as a piece of sociological study. It is in a different university department from historical fact.

[Reffo]

hanayon

First, welcome back to the forum. I too remember you under your earlier name although I don't remember us interchanging views because you either departed around the time that I joined the forum in 2005 or soon after.

About the article that you posted. What can I say? I agree with you totally. About this Akiva that I am talking about, he is a person of about 80. He is a revered elder on the leftist +972 blog. He is a self confessed non Zionist who has seen history unfolding, first hand, in the Palestine of the British Mandate, to our present day. Unfortunately he seems to have been heavily influenced by his non Zionist and I suspect assimilationist parents who were refugees from Nazi Germany in the 1930s. They initially landed in Palestine, ostensibly as visitors, on their way to the Goldeneh Medinah, the USA, but ended up staying in Palestine instead. This Akivah later became a member of the communist party and it seems that he considers himself everything except belonging to the Jewish people. If you want to have an idea what that means, then read my above posts to Aliyah. That describes him to a tee.

[NewsGuy]

Aliah, what a great idea for a thread! I've often pondered the same question about self-hating Jews.

I've come to the conclusion that it's a combination of guilt about being successful, and the misconception that they will be loved by the rest of the world if only other Jews, or the state of Israel, does this or that.

[farmboy]

Today I noticed the surname of our companys secretary which was obviously German and Jewish. When I asked her if it had Jewish origins she looked rather embarassed and acknowleged that her grandparents were German Jews who had escaped Germany. She also emphasised that she was C of E and the subject was evaded when I asked if she knew much about her grandparents and their exodus to Australia.
This may not seem relevant in a topic about self hating Jews but I feel that the two things are connected. When a Jew hates being a Jew, he/she can just opt out and go their own way or they can hang around sowing spite and discord on their own people. Then there are those who would qualify to be Jewish by lineage but would rather let sleeping dogs lie and grasp any other religion rather than be known as a Jew.
I found it very sad, I don't know how you guys feel about it.

[Reffo]

farmboy

The word "sad" is a good way to describe it. Anyone who is ashamed of where he/she comes from just denies part of themselves. And if they are prepared to deny part of themselves because some others out there are prejudiced or hateful, that's even more sad. Because they allow the ignorance of others to dictate to them who they are and where they come from. It is a form of self defeat allowing ignoramuses/haters to tread on one.

The way I see it, we are all multifaceted human beings we have merits and we have baggage. We are good at some things and lack talent at other things. We are all different and we both add and subtract from society. So it is sad when some of us are ashamed of who we are.