What makes self-hating Jews tick?

[Reffo]

For what it's worth, my own attitude has always been that if somebody chooses to dislike me because I am Jewish rather than who I am as a person, then they are not worth knowing anyway, let alone being friends with ...

[farmboy]

Because they allow the ignorance of others to dictate to them who they are

Self imposed slavery. You would be better off dead. What sort of a life is that?

[Reffo]

I guess Jewish people who behave like that would rationalise that since they don't believe in religion anyway, they may as well conform and create a better future for their children and their descendants. There are two problems with this of course. One is that as you say, they just created a delusion for themselves and a kind of slavery (I agree with you). But also, more importantly, they actually rob their children of their heritage and culture and force them into living a kind of a lie.

They haven't learnt from history. Had they bothered, then they'd be able to work out that to the haters of this world, they cannot escape their Jewishness. It happened to the Anusim, those who were forced to convert by the Spanish inquisition. Even generations later, their descendants were being accused of being secret Jews and were executed. It happened during the Nazi era when the grand children of Jewish converts were sent to camps where their survival skills was nowhere near as good as the Jews who haven't lost their self respect. The descendants of converts on the other hand were shattered by the revelation that they too were considered to be Jews. And it happened in the communist era after Stalin turned on the Jews even though many Jews turned to communism because they thought that it would be their salvation. After all, they thought that they were all atheists but it seems that other communists could not overlook their Jewish decent.

What is it they say? If there were no Jews, then they would have to be invented by the haters so that they can have their scape goat. It seems to me that as in any saying, there is a grain of truth in this one too

[johnvonneumann]

If there were no Jews, then they would have to be invented by the haters so that they can have their scape goat. It seems to me that as in any saying, there is a grain of truth in this one too

But this is entirely true. In present day Poland there are hardly any Jews, it is in fact one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world. (Poland also has the smallest proportion of Muslims in the whole of Europe). But quite many believe that the country is run by Jews and everyone they hate is a secret Jews. As the joke goes: "before the war, a Jew was an an enemy, now, an enemy is a Jew."
(One should not take this too seriously, though. While Poland has a large number of open anti-semites, the number of people who have a favourable view of Jews is higher, and the number of people who support Israel is higher than in most Western European countries. Also, some apparent anti-semitism is not quite what it seems, e.g. see for example here

[Reffo]

We, the human species are a weird lot, aren't we?

[farmboy]

We, the human species are a weird lot, aren't we?

Not really. We just think that we are so different from other animals but we are not. In effect what we are doing by singling out others is we are making them weaker and therefore increasing our own survival chances as we hide in the centre of the herd. We hope by being like the majority we will go unnoticed by the predators.

[Reffo]

Except that in the case of the human "animal" the predators happen to be other humans.

[hanayon]

Thanks everyone. Makes sense that I stopped posting under wellofvow in 2005. That was when my family started branching into in-law-ness, grandchildren, my own deteriorating health....

Anyhoo, when I read Farmboy's post, I suddenly remembered a Jewish friend of mine from my Chicago days, I thought we were really close. Then she married for second time, another Jewish guy, but I couldn't figure out why at a Unitarian Church..... I got even more confused (but IMO not as identity-confused as she is) when they adopted an Asian baby - but had the baby converted to Judaism!! I never commented on this, but was hurt when she was in Israel when my daughter got married, but didn't come to the wedding. She was never much of an emailer, too busy, but when I included her in a massmail to my friends in a post questioning whether Obama is good for Israel or the Jews, and her HUSBAND jumped all over me, very rudely, in answer worshipping Obama as epitomizing all that is good and "just". That was the end of a long friendship.....

So we come to it again: why is it that Americans as Americans can debate America, often quite strongly, but without going all loony and dropping friendships of decades, but Jews cannot debate Jews about Israel without the sky falling in?

I believe that there is definitely something in the Jewish psyche operating here - the Massada Complex versus the Diaspora Mentality ("oy, what will the goyim think?"), mybe? It is getting harder and harder for the sane Israeli Jews to maintain, since we feel increasingly crushed between the suicidal outbursts of extreme right-wingers like Avigdor Lieberman and militant settlers (although I definitely understand them) and the suicidal I-believe-the-poor-Palestinians lefties and "progressives" (whom I do not understand since they try to tell Israelis that THEY are the only ones who really understand the conflict, while we are the ones living in).

I am not whining. Perhaps I missed a previous thread on the growing chasm in Jewry, which went from making me feel very sad to lately scaring the whatsis out of me. There will be another war, and I am completely unsure not only of the outcome, but of who will be our supporters. Heaven knows that the "progressive" Jews of America did not support Israel either in 2006 or in 2008. And J Street has Obama's ear and attention, I fear, more than AIPAC. sigh.

[Reffo]

If I am not for myself, who is for me? And when I am for myself only, then what am I? - Hillel

Great signature. I like it even better than my own signature. I wish I thought of using it

[johnvonneumann]

suicidal outbursts of extreme right-wingers like Avigdor Lieberman

I don't find Lieberman in the least "suicidal". On the contrary, he is one of the most realistic and clear sighted politician Israel has ever had.

It seems to me that by referring to him in this way you display exactly the same symptoms as the ones that you describe in the case of your Obama worshiping friends. Both they and you are so emotionally attached to the assumptions about the way the world works (basically “left wing”) that you were brought up with and that are probably shared by most people around you, that to preserve them you are willing to ignore both empirical evidence and what your own intelligence should really make quite obvious to you.

I don’t really want to enter here into a long discussion of Lieberman so I will make only a few brief comments. As foreign minister, in a difficult period for Israel, he has been one of the best that Israel has ever had. More clearly than most Israelis, he has understood the changing balance of power in the world and the need for Israel to look for new allies, away from the traditional dependence on Western Europe. He has not been entirely successful (particularly in his attempts to court Putin’s Russia) but that is because for a country like Israel foreign policy is extremely tricky. Countries that used to be allies (Iran under the Shah, Turkey) can turn into deadly enemies, enemies, like Russia or China, can become potential allies. The trickiest thing of all is to survive the Obama administration while retaining the support of the majority of American public. That itself involves dealing with tricky problems, such as the fact that the most strongly and reliably pro-Israeli group in the US are not US Jews but Christian fundamentalists (whom many Jews, extremely stupidly, in my opinion) regard as enemies. Similar things are also true outside the US, where Israel is today, finds strong support from movements and parties of the right, which most Jews still treat with distaste. However, it is very foolish for country like Israel to be choosy about its allies, particularly when this “choosiness” is based primarily on suspicion and ignorance.
Lieberman has shown that he understands all of this, unlike the great majority of American Jews.

Lieberman is also a politician. As such he has a definite constituency, which is, of course, immigrants from the former Soviet Union, and he expresses the views of this community. This is not a topic I want to discuss, but it is illustrated well by the following political broadcast from the last Israeli election (which I am sure is well known to the Russian speakers on this forum). The singer is Aleksander Rosenabum (who was, by the way, elected to the Duma (the Russian Parliament) but did not take up his seat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZnXjWBkyAI

[Reffo]

On that other forum (which I mentioned earlier), "our friend" Akiva, mentioned a number of times that he is not Jewish, he is Israeli, he is anthropocentrist, not an ethnocentrist. That made me think of another category of Jewish person. The best way to think of them (IMHO) is as DEFEATED Jews. They think of the Jewish people as a failed experiment or as a doomed people. Their assumption is that the Jewish people are destined to be assigned to one of the forgotten chapters of history. In a word, they don't believe in our survival. As such, they are annoyed at those of us who hang onto our Jewishness, whether it be ethno cultural, religious or both. We annoy them because they think that so long as Jews will exist, the enemies of Jews will be around and they will be actively trying to destroy the Jewish people. It concerns them because they are concerned about the possibility of being lumped together with other Jews, as has happened a number of times through history where even third generation converts were categorised as Jews and were persecuted.

So, they try to saddle us with a guilt trip, as ethnocentric racists just because we are insisting on our rights as Jews in the same way that other people have their rights. But according to the Akivas of this world, we are ethnocentric while other nations are allowed to celebrate their national rights and their right to be different. For example, here in Australia, some of the very people (leftists) were the ones who fought for multiculturalism, the celebration of differences, are the ones who are the most ardent opponents of Zionism which is nothing more than the national movement of the Jewish people supporting the right to have self determination for those Jewish people who wish to exercise that right. They support the national aspirations of almost any other group of people but they want to pretend that the aspiration of the Jewish people is somehow racist in nature. Of course, many of the non Jewish leftists who trumpet that line, point to the self hating Jews who originally came up with that line because of their motivation to see the Jewish people disappear so that they too can get on with their lives as honourary non Jews and not be faced with the inconvenience of being reminded of their Jewish heritage. Our Akiva and his acolytes impatiently await the day (and not just wait but they agitate for it) that they would have their bi-national state, in which we would have only Israelis, not Jews and not Arabs just Israelis in which everyone ex Jews and ex Arabs would live happily ever after in peace harmony democracy and secularity. Kumbayah, motherhood and apple pie ... My eyes are misting over ... I am being overcome by positive emotions ... (NOT!).

Ooooooh ... I feel so sorry for them, for the inconvenience that we cause them by still being around, NOT!