On Israel's path

[Erich]

Let's sum up many internationals' concern with what is happening in Israel. I'll lay my views on the line and then you can all line up to call me futile names.

Why are we disappointed in Israel?

1. Look at the Israeli flag. What do you see in the very middle of that flag? I'll tell you what I see. I see a Star of David. It is the same Star of David I saw thousands of times, mixed with Christian crosses, in an American graveyard in Normandy, France. It was the invasion of Normandy that filled that graveyard with 9996 graves of American soldiers, Jewish and Christian. I've heard how the Jews did not fight back against the German fascists. I know otherwise, because I have stood in that graveyard for hours and seen how the Stars of David and Christian crosses that mark the graves represent the lives of Jews and Christians who fought together against that facism...and won. I challenge each and every Israeli Jew to stand in that graveyard and ask those soldiers who gave their lives to defeat facism...if they did so in order that the nation of Israel could then turn around and inflict the same type of oppression on another people.

I ask you to look at that Israeli flag and ask yourselves, despite all claims of secularism and non secularism, if that Star of David was not put on that flag to represent the proud Jewish people and their newly reestablished homeland. Whether you believe in Jehovah or not, do you believe the actions of modern day Israel reflect the thousands of years of wisdom, teachings and laws of the Torah and Talmud?


I ask you to look at that Israeli flag and ask yourselves if that beautiful flag doesn't fly over the lone democracy in a sea of Arab countries who have not yet achieved democracy...and whether Israel has applied those principles of democracy equally and fairly to each and every individual within your borders...as a shining example of what democracy can be.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves what Israel has done for the less fortunate of the world outside your borders...or even within your borders...or whether Israel has instead put its hand out to serve the "chosen" in their narrow path of inward focus.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves what has become of the glorious Zionist dream...that has become a nightmare of fear and hatred...driven by the citizens within Israel's borders.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag...and to tell me how that Star of David grew razor sharp edges...to cut millions of olive branches.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves how it can look so pure white and blue...with all of the blood that has been spilled in its name...knowing that the world's oldest religion and its mighty God Jehovah never granted the power of life and death to any man...or any flag.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves if it flies over a land where the desert has been turned to oasis, a land of milk and honey...or a land of fear and hatred.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves where the hundreds of billions of dollars of reparations and foreign aid have gone...into ploughshares or swords.

I ask you to look up to that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves if you can look each and every Jew in the diaspora in the eye...and be proud of what you have accomplished in crafting the homeland...should it ever be needed.

I ask you to look up at that beautiful Israeli flag and to ask yourselves if being the chosen...has been worth the price you have paid...and made others pay for your dream.

I ask you to look up at that beautiful Israeli flag and to listen to the words being spoken around you in Hebrew...and to ask yourselves if this has grown to be what you dreamt of...or if those words and their meaning leave a touch of sorrow in your hearts.

Finally, I ask you to remember those Stars of David in that graveyard in Normandy...shoulder to shoulder with those Christian crosses...and to ask each and every one of yourselves if you have served their memories proudly...or if your dream has shamed each and every one of them...and all of the millions who died in the Holocaust.

[Erich]

The Flag Part I

From:
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0cph0

The Flag

At the ceremony of the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, the dais was decorated with a picture of Theodor Herzl, flanked on either side by the flag of the World Zionist Organization. This flag, adopted by the first Zionist Congress in Basle in 1897, had become accepted by Jewish communities throughout the world as the emblem of Zionism and it was thus natural to use it at the official proclamation of statehood. Five-and-half months earlier, on November 29, 1947 when the Jews of Eretz Israel had poured into the streets to celebrate the United Nations partition resolution, they too had hoisted the flag of the WZO and used it as a unifying symbol. In May, however, only a few days after the Zionist dream had become reality, the question was raised as to whether the Zionist banner should be the flag of the state or should be replaced. The dilemma continued for about six months, until the following notice was published in the Official Gazette

The Provisional Council of State
Proclamation of the Flag of the State of Israel
The Provisional Council of State hereby proclaims that the flag of the State of Israel shall be as illustrated and described below: The flag is 220 cm. long and 160 cm. wide. The background is white and on it are two stripes of dark sky-blue, 25 cm. broad, over the whole length of the flag, at a distance of 15 cm. from the top and from the bottom of the flag. In the middle of the white background, between the two blue stripes and at equal distance from each stripe is a Star of David, composed of six dark sky-blue stripes, 5.5 cm. broad, which form two equilateral triangles, the bases of which are parallel to the two horizontal stripes.

25 Tishrei 5709 (28 October 1948)
Provisional Council of State
Joseph Sprinzak, Speaker


This decision to adopt the Zionist flag to be the flag of the State of Israel reflects its power as a symbol of the spirit of the Zionist movement. In order to examine the reasons that led to this decision, let us look for the symbolism and consider the motives which prompted the members of the Provisional Council of State first to consider replacing it and then to decide against doing so. Zionist tradition credits the design of the Zionist flag to David Wolffsohn. Legend even tells precisely when Wolffsohn had his brainstorm, namely, that during a meeting in Basel Herzl raised the question of the Zionist flag. When his proposal of a white banner with seven gold stars failed to marshal a consensus, Wolffsohn stood up and said: "Why do we have to search? Here is our national flag." Upon which he displayed his prayer shawl and showed everyone the national flag: a white field with blue stripes along the margin. In our attempt to uncover the message conveyed by the Zionist flag, we should therefore address each of its components separately - the Magen David (Star of David), the blue stripes and the white background.

The Star of David
Unlike the menora (candelabrum), the Lion of Judah, the shofar (ram's horn) and the lulav (palm frond), the Star of David was never a uniquely Jewish symbol. The standard name for the geometric shape is a hexagram or six-pointed star, composed of two interlocking equilateral triangles. In a classic article, Gershom Sholem shed light on the history of the "Star of David" and its connection with Judaism and tried to answer the question whether it was appropriate to include it in the national flag or state emblem.*

One of the first Jewish uses of the Star of David was as part of a colophon, the special emblem printed on the title page of a book. Sometimes the printer included his family name in the colophon; or chose an illustration that alluded to his name, ancestry, or the local prince, or a symbol of success and blessing. The idea was to differentiate this printer's books from those of his competitors and to embellish the title page. Colophons are as old as the printing press itself.

According to Sholem, the motive for the widespread use of the Star of David was a wish to imitate Christianity. During the Emancipation, Jews needed a symbol of Judaism parallel to the cross, the universal symbol of Christianity. In particular, they wanted something to adorn the walls of the modern Jewish house of worship that would be symbolic like the cross. This is why the Star of David became prominent in the nineteenth century and why it was later used on ritual objects and in synagogues and eventually reached Poland and Russia. The pursuit of imitation, in Sholem's opinion, led to the dissemination of an emblem that was not really Jewish and conveyed no Jewish message. In his opinion, it was also the reason why the Star of David satisfied Zionism: it was a symbol which had already attained wide circulation among the Jewish communities but at the same time evoked no clear-cut religious associations. The Star of David became the emblem of Zionist Jews everywhere. Non-Jews regarded it as representing not only the Zionist current in Judaism, but Jewry as a whole.

* G. Sholem, "The Curious History of the Six Pointed Star; How the 'Magen David' Became the Jewish Symbol," Commentary, 8 (1949) pp. 243-351.

The Blue Stripes

The blue stripes on the Zionist flag were inspired by the stripes on the tallit (prayer shawl). The tallit has two separate symbolic aspects: the light blue hue and the stripes. Some say that the stripes are meant to recall the one dyed strand of the ritual fringes (tzitzit). This leads to the significance of the hue itself. According to the Torah, one strand in the tzitzit should be light blue. To judge from references in the Talmud, it was a shade between green and blue. Many symbolic meanings were attributed to it. Rabbi Meir said that it recalls the color of the sky; Rabbi Judah ben Illai maintained that the color of Aaron's staff was light blue, as were the Tablets of the Law, and this is why God commanded the Jews to include it on their prayer shawls: "As long as the people of Israel are looking at this tehelet, they are reminded of {the words} written on the tablets and observe them." In other words, the sight of the color tehelet leads to observance of the commandments. White and tehelet, along with gold and purple, were the colors of the High Priest's raiment (Exodus 28: 4,43) and of the curtains of the Tabernacle (Exodus 26). They were considered to be the colors of purity symbolizing the spirituality of the Jewish people.

[Erich]

The first person in modern times who voiced the idea that blue and white are the national colors of the Jewish people, was the Austrian Jewish poet Ludwig August Frankl (1810-1894). More than three decades before the First Zionist Congress, Frankl published a poem entitled "Judah's Colors":

When sublime feelings his heart fill,
He is mantled in the colors of his country
He stands in prayer, wrapped
In a sparkling robe of white.

The hems of the white robe
Are crowned with broad stripes of blue;
Like the robe of the High Priest,
Adorned with bands of blue threads.

These are the colors of the beloved country,
Blue and white are the borders of Judah;
White is the radiance of the priesthood,
And blue, the splendors of the firmament.


A. L. Frankl, "Juda's Farben," in Ahnenbilder (Leipzig, 1864), p. 127
Frankl's poem was translated into flowery Hebrew and appeared in the periodical Hahavatzelet (The Rose of Sharon) in 1878. We do not know if the founders of Zionism knew the poem, but it is a fact that the flags of almost all the early Zionist associations borrowed the blue stripes of the tallit. A blue-and-white flag was raised over the agricultural village of Rishon Lezion in 1885 to celebrate the third anniversary of its founding. Independently of the Rishon Lezion event, a blue-and-white flag was raised in 1891 in Boston at the dedication of the meeting hall of the Bnai Zion Educational Society. That flag had blue stripes above and below a Star of David that had the Hebrew word "Maccabee" inscribed in its center. Bnai Zion first displayed their banner publicly in October 1892, during festivities to mark the fourth centenary of the discovery of America. This time the word "Zion" replaced "Maccabee".

The blue stripes of the Zionist flag serve as a counterweight to the message of the Star of David. They give the flag the religious and ritual aspect totally absent from the latter. Whether the symbolic meaning of the blue stripes was perceived consciously or not, their origin in the tallit reminds onlookers of the Torah commandments. The Zionist flag uses the Star of David to express Jewish unity, which is in turn guided by the precepts of the Torah, as represented by the blue stripes and white background.
Dual Loyalty

After nearly 50 years during which the flag served the Zionist movement worldwide, including the Yishuv (the Jewish community) in the Land of Israel, an ad-hoc committee of the Provisional Council of State in 1948 decided to "introduce a conspicuous difference - to the extent possible - between the flag of the State and the Zionist flag." Minister of Foreign Affairs Moshe Shertok (Sharett) explained that this was desirable "so as to avoid complications for Jewish communities when they raise the international flag of the Jewish people, namely the Zionist flag, and misunderstandings may occur, or the impression might be that they are flying the flag of a state of which they are not citizens." So that Diaspora Jewry would not be exposed to charges of dual loyalty, it was decided to organize a competition for new designs for the flag of the State of Israel, which would be different from the Zionist flag.

The proposal of Mr. Nissim Sabbah of Tel Aviv, included components that recurred in most of the proposed designsËœtwo blue stripes, a white background, a Star of David in the middle and seven gold stars.

Another proposal endeavored to reconcile the traditional with the modern. It attempted to create a sophisticated symbolism based on the number seven. The seven candles of the Sabbath lamp are crowned by seven flames, shaped like Stars of David; thus Shabat Shalom ("Sabbath peace") is blended with the seven hours of daily labor proposed by Herzl. Another interesting detail is the shape of the proposed flag, which is reminiscent of the Star of David: jutting from the bottom is the lower half of the Star of David, while the same part of the star is cut out of the upper edge of the banner.
In July 1948, Mordechai Nimtza-bi, an expert on heraldry, published a book entitled The Flag, in which he sought to determine the appropriate design for the national flag. Nimtza-bi agreed with Sharett that the Zionist flag should be adopted by the State of Israel but also - that this was not possible. "Even after the establishment of the State, many Jews will continue to live in the Diaspora, and were the Zionist flag to become the state flag, these Jews, who are nationals of their countries of residence, would be flying the flag of a foreign country," he wrote. Nimtza-bi was well versed in the rules of heraldry, especially of the British Empire. The flags of some members of the British Commonwealth incorporated the Union Jack either in the corner, or the center. In his various proposals for the Israeli flag (Figure 8), Nimtza-bi wished to impart to the State of Israel spiritual authority vis-à-vis the Zionist organizations worldwide, similar to the relationship between Great Britain and the dominions. He created many variations on the Zionist flag. The Provisional Council of State did not accept any of his proposals, nor those submitted by the public at large.

At the tenth meeting of the Provisional Council of State, Moshe Sharett submitted another proposal, that of graphic artist Oteh Walisch.

In Walisch's design, the flag is divided crosswise into three equal sections: blue stripes at top and bottom, with a single row of seven gold stars emblazoned on the white section in the middle. This division differs from that of the Zionist flag, which had five stripes - two blue and three white. The relative widths are different, too. Walisch's design represents a deliberate departure from the Zionist flag. As noted, the blue stripes on the latter were taken from the prayer shawl. When Walisch moved them to the upper and lower edges of the banner and made them wider, the design was no longer an obvious reminder of the tallit. The disappearance of the blue stripes gives his proposal a more "secular" character.

In the meantime, Moshe Sharett decided to inquire into Diaspora Jewry's thoughts about the flag of the State of Israel. On July 20, 1948, he sent cables to Dr. Chaim Weizmann, who was in Switzerland at the time; to Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver, in New York; to Prof. Zelig Brodetsky, in London; and to the Zionist General Council, in Johannesburg. Rabbi Silver replied that "we would prefer to leave the Zionist flag as the national flag of Israel, with a minimum of changes. We feel that the fear of complications as a result of use of the flag at Zionist gatherings overseas has been somewhat exaggerated." The other Zionist leaders responded similarly. After the fears of "dual loyalty" had been alleviated, the Provisional Council of State voted unanimously on October 28, 1948 to adopt the Zionist flag as that of the State of Israel. The resolution came into effect two weeks later, after publication in the Official Gazette.

The Tablets of the Law, the Lion of Judah, and Herzl's "Seven Stars," advanced as possible replacements for the Star of David during the discussions about the flag, were incorporated in other official emblems: the Lion of Judah is the emblem of the Municipality of Jerusalem; Herzl's seven stars are prominently featured in the emblems of Tel Aviv and Herzliya; and the Tablets of the Law appear on the emblem of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

The Star of David is an outstanding example of the variable significance of symbols. The power of the message they convey stems less from the original use in history. At first the Star of David had no religious, political, or social connotations whatsoever. It gained a very powerful connotation precisely as a result of its terrible abuse by the Nazis.
The blue and white stripes which symbolize a life of purity, guided by the precepts of the Torah, and the Star of David, which symbolizes rebirth and new life for the Jewish people, tie the State of Israel, through its flag, to the past, present and future. This is evidently why the Zionist flag prevailed over the political considerations that had prompted the leaders of the new state to propose substitutes for it.

[Erich]

I do not have to be Jewish or Israeli to share and support your dream of what Israel could be. It is up to each and every one of you to make Israel into something to be proud of, to turn the nightmare around and realize the dream of an example for all peoples to admire and emulate.
Make the righteous dream a reality and give each and every one of us throughout the world the chance to support that dream made reality, a God given Holy Land that follows the wisdom, justice and laws of our common Creator.
Give us the chance to stand with you with pride...instead of the trepidation that fills our souls everytime the world news tells us how many Israelis...and how many Palestinians died today.

Shalom

[Erich]

My opinion. It does not matter what happened each and every day for the last five decades. What matters is where we go from today forward. It is time for both sides to state that they are not going to play the other side's game anymore, the game of the cycle of violence. The game to see who can be more violent and kill more of the other side's combatants, non combatants...and innocent children.

There is no responsibility to carry on the endless cycle of violence, rather the responsibility is to see who can be more fair and more just than the other side. The task is to sit down at the negotiating table with whomever is available and to compete in the art of compromise, to show the world who is the stronger and more just in this course of action and to start the long process of working towards a mutually beneficial future...free of violence, fear and hatred.

It is time for each and every combatant to throw down their weapons on both sides...and to reach their hands carefully across the line in a handshake to start the future on its rightful course.

[Erich]

How do I see this so called complexity? There are several types of complexity that stand in the way of a resolution.

There is fear and the hatred bred from that fear that stands solidly in the way of any peace.

There is a national mentality of no confidence in their leaders to show the strength, intelligence and cleverness to win this battle on the negotiating tables. This breeds a emotional dependency on perceived necessary assurances, promises and deals to soothe their fears that they won't get screwed in the deal, vitally important, because we're talking about survival here. It doesn't matter that such assurances, promises and deals aren't worth the paper they are written on. The dependeancy still exists.

There is the false hope that military strength and violence will provide a solution, forcing the Arabs to their knees to the point where they must admit defeat. The lack of reality in this concept is obvious if they were to look inward and ask themselves if they would ever admit defeat...and then realize their semitic cousins are made of the same steel.

There is a very real guilt that is forced under the surface, whitewashed and even denied, because it does not fit their self image...and in reality has no place in their culture.

There is a sense of hopelessness of any solution coming from within, that any solution needs to be forced on them from outside, against their will, by referees that hold both murderous sides apart.

And a whole ton of other factors that add to this complexity...but there is one simple reason that all of these complexities exist. Israel needs one lion of a leader, with the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of the Sphinx to clean house. Furthermore, this leader must motivate and dominate Israel to the point where the vast majority accepts that there is one boss who calls the shots.

Countries throughout history have gotten themselves into similar situations in the past, the divinely inspired books are full of examples. In every case, time passed and there was no solution until that great leader came along to answer the call.

Looking back through the history of modern Israel, I see no really outstanding leaders. Maybe the formula for making such great leaders has escaped Israel for too long.

A great leader must unite his nation with a very clear vision of what the future "will be", not "can be", and that vision must be worthy of his/her people.

A great leader must address the nation on a weekly basis to reinforce what progress has been made...but most importantly to inform the nation of what challenges lay ahead, what options are available, which option has been chosen as the most advantageous to meet the challenge...and why. Sounds pretty simple, but look at US presidents and ask yourselves why this methodology has not been used since John F, Kennedy...and why? Reagan came the closest to using this, but the incidences were few and far between. Most importantly, this methodology never came from the leaders...it came from their speech writers. The absolute best speech writers are crucial to a great leader...and through implication, the nation.

A great leader must motivate the entire nation to contribute to that vision. Another Kennedy style method..."Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." Leaders throughout the society to even include the leaders of industries must be asked or tasked by that great leader to take an active role in helping to implement the solutions. Even the the most minor players in society must be motivated...or allowed to play their part in putting the country back on the proper course. It's all about ownership, pride and participation.

A great leader in this situation would not just lay out that vision for Israel, but would have the strength to lay out what "will be" for the Palestinians...to the amazement, pleasure and agreement of the Palestinians. This whole concept of bilateral action being necessary for a solution has always been horse manure. Give the Palestians a real vision of what will be, a reality they will desire with all of their hearts...and they will find a way to get rid of Arafat if he isn't smart enough to play along. Dangle the carrot...and make sure it's 24 carat...and that you are willing to let them have it.

Another issue is negotiating. Everyone always tries to come up with their package...and then tries to push their package against the opposition's, a process that is doomed to failure in the overwhelming number of cases. True negotiations have to do with deciding on both sides what your individual priorities are. Then starts the process of agreeing to the other side's top priority in exchange for their agreeing to your top priority. On down the list, priority by priority. One side's perception of the other side's priorities is rarely accurate and the reality first becomes clear on the table, much to many's surprise. There will also be priorities that must be ripped up and discarded in trade for the same action on the other side. That's the other side of the process that has to do with harsh, cold realities...and must be accepted if there is to be any solution. There is no compromise where both sides get everything they want. If there was, it wouldn't be a compromise.

So there's my view. In summary, Israel either needs this great leader...or to pull together to make a great leader who will brush aside all of the complexities on a path of reestablishing what should have been all along. It's as simple as that. Sorry if it isn't complex enough to "sound intelligent".

[L@mplighterM]

Your premise is based on yesterday’s phycology when it was thought that it takes two too tango. Sorry! There is a school yard bully and victims.

The Palestinians aren’t victims of Israeli aggression if anything they have made their own bed by supporting bad leadership.

Unless my history is completely twisted the West Bank and Gaza Strip were part of Jordan and Egypt respectably. It seems to me that these two countries were the ones that were in a position to negotiate who gets what. They did so with Oslo II !

The Palestinians under the leadership of Arafat (he still has a high degree of support) turned down that agreement. As a matter of fact no agreement has ever been satisfactory to the Palestinians.

Comparing the ME situation to that of WW II is absurd especially when you point the finger at Israel and suggest that it has somehow done anything wrong.

[ibrodsky]

Erich,

A few suggestioins:

IsraelForum is a place for discussion. Your series of posts are the written equivalent of the five-hour speech. No one wants to read through that much material...

When you start a thread by announcing "I'll lay my views on the line and then you can all line up to call me futile names" you are telling people you really don't want to discuss anything with them, and you completely discredit yourself.

When you continue by pretending to speak for everyone ("Why are we disappointed in Israel?"), it doesn't help either. Because in a discussion forum, as you know, "we" don't all agree. Instead of pretending you speak for everyone, why not start by saying "Why I am disappointed..."?

Personally, I find it amazing that someone in Spain would adopt such a self-righteous tone. If Palestinian terrorists are a reflection of Israel's injustice, then surely there is something very unjust about your country. Only your country has been at it for much, much, longer over a much wider area.

To wit, Israel would have to fire its entire nuclear arsenal off at once to kill half as many people as Spain has slaughtered over the ages.

[Erich]

Ibrodsky,

you might want to adjust your perspective a tad.
I am not Spanish.
I am American, retired Army, Desert Storm vet with the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

And don't ever expect me to respect you when you attempt to justify evil actions by pointing your finger at another country's evil. That will never buy it in my book. Forget it.

If you don't want to read ten minutes of material and respond with the knowledge of those posts, then don't laughably comment on my posts and try to give me advice. Simply skip my posts and go on to the cartoon captions you desire.

As to self righteous, you are the pot calling the kettle black.

[Erich]

[i]Comparing the ME situation to that of WW II is absurd especially when you point the finger at Israel and suggest that it has somehow done anything wrong. [/B]

L@mplighterM,

you very accurately summed up your entirely nonsensical reply that was nothing more than spin written to memory. Examine your sentence and tell me what country in the entire world, ruled by fallible men, has not committed wrong. Don't even try this with me.

If you want, I will discuss each of your points, but only if you are willing to listen, and I mean really listen. We will talk about the years since Egypt and Jordan, how parallels really are parallels, the evils of Arafat and the numerous terrorist groups and why they still exist, despite efforts of the mighty Israeli military that will be shooting nine year olds holding gameboys next.

Don't get me wrong. I am completely for the immediate irradication of all terrorists, and I'm amazed that it hasn't happened in full scale onslaughts against them. But I also understand some of the reasons...and how it can happen if those reasons are dealt with.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Erich
If you want, I will discuss each of your points, but only if you are willing to listen, and I mean really listen...
I'm amazed that it hasn't happened in full scale onslaughts against them.

Instead of discussing people's listening skills, why don't you stick to the points and respond to them?

Now, saying that there has been a "full scale onslught" is nonsense. There never has been such a thing, because the IDF has always tried to avoid inflicting civilian casualties on the Palestinians. And knowing that the cowardly Islamic murderers use their Arab brothers as human shields, the IDF has never been able to respond in full force to the Palestinian terrorism.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Erich

It seems to me that you have missed the main point:

NEVER AGAIN!

NEVER AGAIN! will the Jews be treated as if they have no rights on this planet. And that includes some of your version of the 'beautiful' but victimized (dead) Jew.

I am really tired of your expectations. Did you, the US veteran check out the map lately? Did you see the size of Israel next to those Behemoth Arab lands? Have you done your research to find out just how many Jews are living in Israel versus how many Arabs in these 22 Arab countries? Did you bother to read all the hate literature and the PA covenant calling for Israel's destruction? Did you notice that Jews are being targetted in various places in the world? Did you notice that Jewish children in Israel are targetted systematically by the suicide genocidal murderers?Did you notice that the 'Palestinian' mothers celebrate their own children's death missionss as well as 9/11?

Perhaps you find that now it must be the Jew/Israel fault, because of the so called 'occupation' excuse. Well honestly, as someone who is too close for comfort (unlike someone like you who can admire the Jewish dead from afar) somehow i am afraid that the last 60 years have not been enough to erace my suspicion and memory that someone out there wouldn't bother to raise their voices even to interrupt watching a favorite TV program if my people were being slaughtered.

So, unlike the old Jew of the past, I now feel that I have proof enough to make sure I will not become a victim again. Not to say that all your lovely perceptions of Jewish people shouldn't be. I wish also it could be. But lets face it. Right now, while you safely write from your Spanish home (i hope it's nice too for you) some very bad people are discussing, planning, and acting on their 'dream' to destroy Jews/Israel which IS MY NIGHTMARE!

So, kindly do not speak to me about MY making a nightmare out of Israel because the Holocaust WAS a nightmare. Israel, despite the sad stuff that is going on is still SO MUCH BETTER than anything any Jew ever had since our forced exile (our being ethnically cleaned) from our historic homeland over 2,000 years ago.

There is no excuse for your dreaming of some perfect dead Jews.
WE are REAL people and we do not have to live up to your idea of who is nice and who is not. After all, if I remember correctly, till recently, and for over 2000 years,some other religious group was also persecuting/slaughtering Jews alongside the Arafats and Osamas of the world who now took over ......

ps: the flag of Israel is a beautiful flag and it means the blue skies above me are a symbol of hope and life for me, and anyone who wants to live in peace and enjoy the gift of the blue sky.

I feel NO GUILT AND NO SHAME to defend myself. As a US veteran I think it's a little hypocritical of you to judge anyone who defends their right to secure the safety of their people against enemies who have announced their murderous intentions and acted on them.

[Erich]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Instead of discussing people's listening skills, why don't you stick to the points and respond to them?

Now, saying that there has been a "full scale onslught" is nonsense. There never has been such a thing, because the IDF has always tried to avoid inflicting civilian casualties on the Palestinians. And knowing that the cowardly Islamic murderers use their Arab brothers as human shields, the IDF has never been able to respond in full force to the Palestinian terrorism.

Let me clarify my polarization in this conflict so you understand.

Both sides are dead wrong in many areas. Anyone who tries to hold up one side as holier or more moral in this conflict just hasn't been paying attention.

Like your "cowardly Islamic murderers use their Arab brothers as human shields", without mentioning that it took UN action to get the IDF to stop using Palestinians as human shields to go through the front doors of houses or to place them in numbers on the front of Israeli tanks.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there have been far too many "civilian casualties", more commonly refered to as "collateral damage" by the IDF, as if dead non combatant men, women and children could be related to as property damage. What moron calls F-16 missile strikes on an apartment complex in Gaza, fully aware that it is one of the most densely populated urban areas on the globe...and then states that "if he had known...". There has been a unexplainably high number of head shots with clear intent to kill, not to wound or maim. Tanks running over a man in a wheel chair, a mother and her daughter working in a field shot and killed because "they weren't supposed to be there", working their field, trying to survive.
One of the reasons this is happening? Because the IDF should never have been given this mission in the first place. They should be defending from attacks outside of Israel's borders. The IDF and the many Reservists that supplement the IDF are not trained properly for policing criminals. Police units are trained in such efforts and are supplemented by special units that are trained to deal with terrorists. The plain truth is that it is much cheaper to use Reservists. These Reservists are following the unwritten rules of shoot first, before any "potential" enemy shoots them, or throws a molotov cocktail in their face, or throws acid in their face, or pulls the pin on that grenade...and so on. It is purely a question of how much you want to risk your survival.
UN workers holding cell phones are fair game...cause it might be a grenade. Israeli taxis are fair game, if they travel down the wrong road without clearance. A woman sitting in her car, stationary, is fair game, because she just might have a bomb in that car.

There have been full scale onslaughts in the form of months long occupation and curfews of towns in the West Bank, like Bethlehem and many others. Where do you folks get your facts? Do you just read this forum or are you watching the news and reading Israeli newspapers? Or have you decided that there are only a few papers fit to read? C'mon! I can't believe the one sided ignorance I see on this forum. Both sides are dead wrong in many areas and neither side should be supported any further until a lot of this stuff gets cleaned up.

[Erich]

Originally posted by Batman
It seems to me that you have missed the main point:

NEVER AGAIN!

NEVER AGAIN! will the Jews be treated as if they have no rights on this planet. And that includes some of your version of the 'beautiful' but victimized (dead) Jew.

I am really tired of your expectations. Did you, the US veteran check out the map lately? Did you see the size of Israel next to those Behemoth Arab lands? Have you done your research to find out just how many Jews are living in Israel versus how many Arabs in these 22 Arab countries? Did you bother to read all the hate literature and the PA covenant calling for Israel's destruction? Did you notice that Jews are being targetted in various places in the world? Did you notice that Jewish children in Israel are targetted systematically by the suicide genocidal murderers?Did you notice that the 'Palestinian' mothers celebrate their own children's death missionss as well as 9/11?

Perhaps you find that now it must be the Jew/Israel fault, because of the so called 'occupation' excuse. Well honestly, as someone who is too close for comfort (unlike someone like you who can admire the Jewish dead from afar) somehow i am afraid that the last 60 years have not been enough to erace my suspicion and memory that someone out there wouldn't bother to raise their voices even to interrupt watching a favorite TV program if my people were being slaughtered.

So, unlike the old Jew of the past, I now feel that I have proof enough to make sure I will not become a victim again. Not to say that all your lovely perceptions of Jewish people shouldn't be. I wish also it could be. But lets face it. Right now, while you safely write from your Spanish home (i hope it's nice too for you) some very bad people are discussing, planning, and acting on their 'dream' to destroy Jews/Israel which IS MY NIGHTMARE!

So, kindly do not speak to me about MY making a nightmare out of Israel because the Holocaust WAS a nightmare. Israel, despite the sad stuff that is going on is still SO MUCH BETTER than anything any Jew ever had since our forced exile (our being ethnically cleaned) from our historic homeland over 2,000 years ago.

There is no excuse for your dreaming of some perfect dead Jews.
WE are REAL people and we do not have to live up to your idea of who is nice and who is not. After all, if I remember correctly, till recently, and for over 2000 years,some other religious group was also persecuting/slaughtering Jews alongside the Arafats and Osamas of the world who now took over ......

ps: the flag of Israel is a beautiful flag and it means the blue skies above me are a symbol of hope and life for me, and anyone who wants to live in peace and enjoy the gift of the blue sky.

I feel NO GUILT AND NO SHAME to defend myself. As a US veteran I think it's a little hypocritical of you to judge anyone who defends their right to secure the safety of their people against enemies who have announced their murderous intentions and acted on them.

Batman,

I have to get some sleep, but I will take your post on tomorrow. Meanwhile, contemplate on how hatred comes from fear...and how history does not give you an unlimited license to do whatever you would like to, even under such banners like, NEVER AGAIN, because you just might be the one doing it again.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Erich
L@mplighterM,

you very accurately summed up your entirely nonsensical reply that was nothing more than spin written to memory. Examine your sentence and tell me what country in the entire world, ruled by fallible men, has not committed wrong. Don't even try this with me.

If you want, I will discuss each of your points, but only if you are willing to listen, and I mean really listen. We will talk about the years since Egypt and Jordan, how parallels really are parallels, the evils of Arafat and the numerous terrorist groups and why they still exist, despite efforts of the mighty Israeli military that will be shooting nine year olds holding gameboys next.

Don't get me wrong. I am completely for the immediate irradication of all terrorists, and I'm amazed that it hasn't happened in full scale onslaughts against them. But I also understand some of the reasons...and how it can happen if those reasons are dealt with.

It appears that we have a common ground because you indicate that you’re surprised that the terrorists haven’t been eliminated. If the terrorists had been eliminated then the issue of terrorism would be moot. There wouldn’t be a problem!

You do understand that if Israel launched a full-scale assault in the WB and BS it would most likely result in UN intervention if civilian casualties became unacceptable. It seems to me that even ONE Palestinian casualty in the WB and/or GS brigs condemnation from the UN. This criticism is one sided to say the least.

Oslo II was an attempt to create a Palestinian state and Arafat turned it down in collaboration with other Arab states. Further, the Palestinian leadership ignored the Tenet Plan and Mitchell Plan. I see no indication that they want to reach an agreement that will lead to an uneasy truce.

In case you don’t know attempting to smuggle in 50 Tons of weapons is certainly not a gesture towards peace.

You might be a retired vet and an American and if you are you should that the US Armed Forces wouldn’t go knocking on doors to ferret out Islamic Fundamentalists terrorists. The soldiers in the IDF are brave souls that in my opinion are required to fight under guidelines that favor the enemy in many cases.

I’m not interested to discuss the years after Egypt and Jordan beyond what I already wrote. They lost the land and is/was in a better position to state what is or isn’t fair in regards to the settlement of establishing permanent borders separating Israel, the WB and GS.

One of the greatest hoaxes of the last century was getting people to believe that the Palestinians are a distinct people that lost their land. The fact is that many of the individuals there are political refugees from Arab States. So you might call the WB and GS a dumping ground or a penal colony where Arabs head when they escape from other Arab/Muslim states.

Israel has negotiated while under daily attacks from their neighbors I don’t think there are many precedents where a side will negotiate while in a state of war unless they are loosing.