On Israel's path

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Erich

In my opinion, the Palestinian government has forfeited their legitimacy and deserves to be removed...as a favor to the Palestinian people. Should their replacements display similar behaviour, they should be removed also, until the cycle is broken and the Palestinian people end up with the responsible government they deserve. Who should be doing the removing? The UN should prove that it is relevant and either authorize Israel to do the removing, or use a UN directed force to do so with member states of the region providing the necessary forces to do so.

Well, I agree with this. However, I am not so naive to believe the UN, which has singled out Israel for condemnation for 50 years while only condemning terrorist attacks against Israelis in the last month(!), would ever do this.

In fact, you have to be a bit psychotic to even imagine the UN "authoriz[ing] Israel to do the removing."

Please stop playing games, Erich. This forum is full of discussion of the issues. You started a thread in which you made numerous vague allegations against Israel. When we call you for it, you plead you are our friend. When we try to discuss the issues with you, you trot out some unnamed Israeli woman ranting about how Israel is "stupid" and making one false charge after another.

[ibrodsky]

Yes, I think this typifies this thread:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Erich
I've spent most of my life believing what you wish to communicate on this forum. Been there, done that...

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[posted by MichaelC] Would you do me the favor of examing this statement again? Don't you see how demeaning it is? You imply that you have transcended all of us here, who are still mired in our ignorance while you wait, somewhat impatiently for us up the road a piece, as we stumble about, unable to see what should be done.

Sort of lowers the conversation don't you think? I mean, if you wish to convince us to take the "high road", how're we going to do that via this "low road" insinuation?

Erich prefers to discuss *us* rather than the issues.

[Erich]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
...
Clean is a relative term. Compared to what? For example why are there no landmines in Judea? Because it's inhumane.

"Because it's inhumane."

From:
http://www.lebanon.com/news/local/2002/12/21.htm

BEIRUT, Dec 16 (AFP) - Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski, who arrived in Lebanon Monday, said his country would join demining efforts in south Lebanon, which is laden with explosives as a result of Israel's 22-year occupation of the region.

Kwasniewksi offered his country's assistance to Lebanese President Emile Lahoud who welcomed him at Beirut's airport, a Lebanese official source said. The United Nations is spearheading a campaign to rid Lebanon of an estimated 400,000 mines left behind by Israel when it withdrew from the country in May 2000.

Because it's inhumane?

[Mediocrates]

Yeah because it's inhumane, was that not clear? One was a war one is not.

[Erich]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Yeah because it's inhumane, was that not clear? One was a war one is not.

The only thing that is clear is how you twist the facts to suit your needs.

[Mediocrates]

BTW you understand that Lebanon has refused repeatedly to sign the landmine treaty, yes?

And that information above is roughly 18 months old.


Here is a more complete picture

Lebanon

The French Mandate period (1923-1943), the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990) and the time during which Israel occupied south Lebanon (1978-2000) have left Lebanon with an estimated 130,000 mines and UXO in the former occupied zone and 150,000 mines and UXO in the rest of the country. The UN Intervention Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) claims that 50,644 anti-personnel landmines (APL) are located in 108 minefields along the Lebanon-Israel border, 7,730 APL and anti-tank mines in an additional 48 minefield clusters, and 107,200 APL elsewhere in the country. As of July 2000, landmines and UXO had killed 1,168 Lebanese and wounded 1,546 more; 15 of the fatalities and 99 of the injuries occurred between May 2000 and May 2001. More than 40 percent of victims suffered their injuries while engaged in agricultural activities, the major source of income for Lebanese villagers. In South Lebanon and West Bekaa, there has been a noticeable decrease in agricultural production because of the presence of landmines.

http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/5.3/notes/stacysmith.htm

UXO is unexploded ordance - both are lumped in the same category.

See also this

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/608/re6.htm

and go to the next to last paragraph

And this is from the Arab press.

[Mediocrates]

It's still an active war zone BTW even after withdrawal.

[Erich]

For general knowledge sake:

http://www.mines.gc.ca/III-en.asp

QUOTE
Implementing the Ottawa Convention
While the world celebrated when 122 States signed the Ottawa Convention at a ceremony in Ottawa in December 1997, the real work to effectively implement the Convention was yet to begin. The Ottawa Convention provides a comprehensive framework for addressing the global landmine problem and by formally accepting the terms of the Convention, States agree to act on a number of fronts including:


immediately ending the production, transfer and use of anti-personnel mines;
destroying stockpiled anti-personnel mines within four years of the entry-into-force of the Convention for a particular State;
clearing mined areas;
providing assistance to mine victims;
delivering risk-reducing mine awareness education;
and cooperating to ensure full compliance with the Convention.
ENDQUOTE

The Ottawa Convention postdates the deployment of landmines by several countries into places like Lebanon. We can hope that eventually all countries will abandon this barbaric practice.

[Mediocrates]

No doubt yet a 3 or 4 way war going on for more than 40 years, on and off is the root cause. Neither Israel nor Lebanon are signatories to the Ottawa.. Those mines were deployed against armies; the Syrian army, the Lebanese militias, Hezbollah.

Point is, that is/was a war zone such as you would find with tanks and artillery arrayed against each other like on the Iran/Iraq border or the Korean DMZ. The other, Judea is not comparable therefore no mines. Would we expect Arab states to consider these subtleties? No we would not.

[Mediocrates]

By comparison, according to the UN there are over 10 Million mines in Afghanistan or about 77 times as many. Clearly those are arrayed as terrorist weapons. In Lebanon it's not so clear.

[Erich]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
By comparison, according to the UN there are over 10 Million mines in Afghanistan or about 77 times as many. Clearly those are arrayed as terrorist weapons. In Lebanon it's not so clear.

Afghanistan has about 63 times the land mass of Lebanon.

Afghanistan, 647,500 sq km
Lebanon, 10,230 sq km

So, average density of landmines in Afghanistan would be about 1.22 times that of Lebanon. Doesn't look so much different figured this way, does it?

[Mediocrates]

Depends on the deployment, uh wait you found us out~it's a secret genocidal plot!!

It was a WAR zone. My sister in law who lives on a farm in Normandy is still digging up junk from World War I.