Home | Michael, that's a silly argument - wherever it came from.
Yes, the Israelis live with their families. That is supposed to be a good thing, no?
Or do you mean to tell me that the murderers thought that there was an army base hidden in the hotel, in the same room as a bunch of old people having a Passover Seder? Or, maybe, in the Delphinarium - those kids were soldiers in disguise? Let's not even go into this latest stuff: the couple celebrating Shabbat.
Good grief!
Michael, since you appear to lean to the pro-palestinian camp, perhaps you can explain the justification of blowing up children on a bus from school? You rail against the Israeli's for their treatment of the Pal's, how would you respond to someone blowing your little girl up while you were eagerly awaiting her return from classes? These racist barbarians are not honorable, not noble, and do not deserve sympathy. Those who purposefully target children deserve to be tortured to death in the public square. It is one thing to go to war, soldier against soldier, quite another to seek to hamstring and demoralize your enemy by targeting innocents who are unarmed and unable to defend themselves. How do you justify supporting such animals?Originally posted by michael
Well, that's quite an interesting take on international law- that the Palestinians are the occupying power...?
The difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that when a Palestinian kills an Israeli civilian it's because they intended to kill them, indeed, that they aimed to rip apart mother and child, intended to rob a boy of his father, intended to hurt and kill people who have nothing to do with this conflict. When an Israeli kills a Palestinian civilian it is because a terrorist has brought himself within the civilian ranks, precisely because he knows the terrible choice that will bring upon the highly principled and ethical Israeli army, to kill civilians that this terrorist has blanketed himself with, or to allow their own civilians to be killed by this monster. The terrorist knows, in fact encourages, the deaths of his countrymen by placing himself amongst them as he plans the next attack on a Israeli pizza parlor or ice cream shop. It is not the Israeli army that has killed the majority of these palestinian civilians, regardless of who pulled the trigger on the gun, it is the palestinian terrorist who is responsible for their deaths, as he armors himself with the lives of his countrymen in order to advance his sick and twisted plan to turn public opinion against Israel even as he plots it's destruction.
Originally posted by michael
As for civilians "avoiding zones of warfare" ;
"Anyone versed in the Gaza Strip knows that with the extreme population density there, it is impossible to carry out operations of this type without harming the innocent," said Yohanon Tzoref, former Arab affairs advisor to the IDF's Civil Administration in the Strip. "Every operation, especially those carried out in the style of the ones being mounted at present, makes it nearly obligatory that innocents will be hurt."
Again, arab choose the battlefield, not we. Arabs leave us no choise: Either to defend ourselves in arms, or to give up our birth rights for the lands of our forefathers as as well as our humanitarian right for self determintaion and life and a free and soverigne state of our own.
Many many arabs, thousands of them chose to surrender to our soldiers and get arrested, peacefuly. (if they found guilty in court, they would be jailed ofcourse). Point is, thousands of arabs chose surrebder of death, chose jail over battle.
Not making such arests, means allowing terrorism roam free. Making arrests, few of the time means confrontations and small- arms battles. Again, the choise is with in the Arabs. There for, Arabs are fully responsible to every civilian who is accidently dies. (I sure hope you don't blame us for targetting civilians).
As for the Arabs... I've never seen arab men whose legs are casted in concrete. There for, it's should be no problem for him to take off and avoid warzones. Any other people could... Its not like we Israelis carpet bomb them from the air or use heavy artilery to flatten whole towns, do we???
Yap... that's always true! Can't agree more!Originally posted by michael
Hmmmm...they really should try a little harder shouldn't they?
I suggest that "humanitarian" states, like yours, should allow arabs to escape the "occuaption" and settle in the street next to yours. AFAIK, even arab states, their own brothers, locked the borders and do not allow them to move to a safer location, away from the fightings.
Haaretz bunch, in Israel, are known to be anti semetic and anti Israeli. Many of them are openly anti Zionsits. And yes, they sell much less papers in the last few years.Originally posted by michael
“The Israeli argument that terrorists are hiding in those same places strengthens the Palestinian conception regarding the double Israeli standards. Isn't it true that senior Israeli army officers, commanders and soldiers, who are responsible for killing thousands of Palestinian citizens in the past 20 years, live within civilian neighborhoods? And hasn't the IDF established bases and positioned tanks within settlements, from where it shells the Palestinian neighborhoods and camps?†(Haaretz March 5, 2003)
If this Haaretz bunch weren't Isreali, I'd swear they were anti-Semitic.
Who said all Israelis or all jews are Zionist and pro Israeli? We have more then our fare share of communists, wirdows and psaudo intelectuals, who take european money and justify what ever anti semetic lible they asked for and then add some of their own mattirial. I can promise you, that for the right sum of money, I can find you an Israeli jewish history professor who can lie and deny the holocaust. (even if he is a survivor himself...). The world is full with crazy people, in Israel they've their own paper.... what can I say?
As for army camps and civilian neighborhoods... Army soldiers live either in barracks or army bases. Arab don't have bases. When a sloldier stands guard, he does so in a guarding post or position or storng hold, not from with in a house with its residents in it. Arabs use the residents of flats and houses as human shields, hospitals and mousques as barracks, ambulances as APC's and civilian towns as army bases. IDF soldiers wear uniforms and travel in special designated cars, where arab terrorist desguise as women, make use of children and do their best to be considered as civilians, even after their death.
Arabs commite crimes against humanity, is obvious. I don't need HRW or any other organization to tell me that. I can think for my self. Can you?Originally posted by michael
Warcrimes commited by the Palestinians? The last HRW report said so, and I 'll take their word for it. They also said that the IDF has committed war crimes, so as a matter of principle I accept this too. What about you?
I denay the accusation as if IDF commits war crimes. I consider it as blood lible. Idiotic as much as dengerus excuses for attacking Jews and Zionism.
Last edited by Gilgamesh; 03-08-2003 at 12:22 PM.
Fair questions JustPat.Originally posted by JustPat
Michael, since you appear to lean to the pro-palestinian camp, perhaps you can explain the justification of blowing up children on a bus from school? You rail against the Israeli's for their treatment of the Pal's, how would you respond to someone blowing your little girl up while you were eagerly awaiting her return from classes?
I don't justify these acts. They are crimes against humanity and the people responsible should be tried and punished.
The constant demand is that these crimes justify Israeli crimes which are "self-defence". They simply don't and never will.
The recent Jalabiaya attacks and resulting deaths were quickly explained away by IDF spoksmen as a response to the Haifa bombing. Unfortunately the Jalabiya operation had been planned and approved prior to the Haifa bombing. And of course the next Hamas attack will be proclaimed as retalition for the deaths in Jalabiya and ad infinitum.......................
In another forum I asked the open ended question of a "real" American how s/he felt that innocent American citizens, over 40 of them had been murdered by terrorists in jihadtifada 2.0. (of course) the response I got back was "if people go to a war zone they should expect to die."
So I would submit, somewhat cynically that this is the downside to so called asymmetrical warfare. If the basic doctrine and tactic is to blur the distinction between soldiers and innocent bystanders then occasionally really bad things happen. For example yesterday a couple, the parents of 4 children, was shot dead at their Shabbat table by terrorists masquerading as missonaries or religious students. I submit that any counterterrorism activities should employ similar concern and compassion. But if the army, as armies are wont to be, is just a blunt object and bystanders get hurt then terrorists should either reexamine their tactics or, as is more likely, simply accept their losses whatever they are and rely instead on 'world opinion' which, if you dwell on it for only a few moments is probably the intent anyway.
In the end, and again this is somewhat cynical (because I'm from a place way beyond that~~) that if parents and children can be shot dead for the crime of being Jewish legitimate targets then terrorist conclaves are all likewise just collections of ground zeros.
Oh yeah??? and how exactly you suppose we put our hand on theses guys who are responsible for crimes against humanity? offer them candy? ask politly and say "pretty please"? or rather we salt their tail first?Originally posted by michael
I don't justify these acts. They are crimes against humanity and the people responsible should be tried and punished.
chase them into the towns they live in, even if that demand a battle, that's our only option.
killing terrorist is not a war crime. If a civilian is caught in the middle of the gun fight and dies, its obvoiusly not IDF fault. Each arab civilian is responsible to his own life. he should have clear the battlezone or he wasn't really a civilian, but a terrorist. Also, the terrorists rearly turn themselves in by themselves, which make us come down and chase them where ever they may hide. If battle erupts its always the Arabs fault.Originally posted by michael
The constant demand is that these crimes justify Israeli crimes which are "self-defence". They simply don't and never will.
Last but not least, there where no soldiers in Gaza or the WB 3 years ago. Things changed only after a year and half of senseless murder of Jews by arabs, all over Israel.
Again, this war is not a war of choise for us Jews.
Either you or the repoter misunderstood that officer.Originally posted by michael
The recent Jalabiaya attacks and resulting deaths were quickly explained away by IDF spoksmen as a response to the Haifa bombing. Unfortunately the Jalabiya operation had been planned and approved prior to the Haifa bombing. And of course the next Hamas attack will be proclaimed as retalition for the deaths in Jalabiya and ad infinitum.......................
The Jebalia anti terrorist raid was planned in advance, to prevent similar attacks like the Haifa massacre of jews. Not as a responce to a particular terror attack but as part of an ongoing warfare against a terror organiztion called Hamas, which its bases and command centers hide within residential areas, desguised as civilians. using ambulances as APC's, using children as human shields, using schoolyards as morter positions and mosques as sniper positions.
The fact that so few arabs have died in Jebalia shows the enormus restraint of the IDF, as well as the cowardness of the Arabs, who kept themselves hidden rather then fighting...
I guss the Arabs are "heros" only agianst unarmed jewish children...
If there is one achivment in the Jebalia skrimish, is the fact that from now on, the arabs of Jebalia will keep themselves under their bed, where they can wet their pants of fear, undisturbed.
It's a known fact that under his bed with wet pants, arabs are less harmful to jews.
Last edited by Gilgamesh; 03-09-2003 at 08:22 AM.
Allow me to note something michael. The IDF happens to have a very capable Air Force, one considered one of the best in the world. Many soldiers have died during the process of rooting out terrorists in urban warfare. Should the IDF have no regard for civilian life, it is likely they would do what the Syrians did to the town of Hama. The town was the source of some conflict. Did the Syrians bring in negotiators? Did they send in soldiers to find the instigators of the violence and capture, or if necessary kill them? No, they did not. They brought planes. Planes that flattened the town indiscrimantly and completely. Very little international outcry was heard, especially in comparison to the outcry at Israeli military operations. This clearly shows a level of hypocrisy and anti-semitic bias in the international community. The IDF has the capability to do what the Syrians did to Hama and more, yet they don't. They send in soldiers, boys who are sons and fathers, and these soldiers risk their life, not simply in order to stop violence against Israelis, because had that been all we cared about we would have simply brought in planes, but in order to do everything they could to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties. Do you understand what that means Michael? Israel sacrifices it's own boys, in order to try and avoid killing those people who hate us. Even if you do not agree that these operations should occur, you must admit that they are done with consideration towards avoiding civilian casualties. Even you Michael, must admit that this shows that the IDF has considerable regard for human life and attempting to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties.
Then answer them.Originally posted by michael
Fair questions JustPat.
When I first heard the 10:1 payback policy for terrorism I was taken aback. Seemed to me to be a bit over the top. Today, after more than 50 years of terrorism being inflicted on Israel, and spreading to other nations while blaming Israel, I am more inclined to lean toward the harshest methods and strongest actions. Arabs I know are terrified of "the stake." Perhaps our compassion and nobility have allowed us to put a bandaid on the cancer while it continues to grow and consume us. Let's take the gloves off. If this is war then let's adopt the old adage and see how long it really lasts. "Alls fair in love and war."Originally posted by Mediocrates ... if parents and children can be shot dead for the crime of being Jewish legitimate targets then terrorist conclaves are all likewise just collections of ground zeros.
Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Oh yeah??? and how exactly you suppose we put our hand on theses guys who are responsible for crimes against humanity? offer them candy? ask politly and say "pretty please"? or rather we salt their tail first?
Well there is one option. If the PA doesn't investigate and prosecute, such a case would fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. Israel could takes its grievence there, but I have a feeling that this is unlikely, for obvious reasons.
Originally posted by LionOfLoyalty
Allow me to note something michael. The IDF happens to have a very capable Air Force, one considered one of the best in the world. ..... Should the IDF have no regard for civilian life, it is likely they would do what the Syrians did to the town of Hama. The town was the source of some conflict. Did the Syrians bring in negotiators? ...... No, they did not. ............ The IDF has the capability to do what the Syrians did to Hama and more, yet they don't. . ....... Even you Michael, must admit that this shows that the IDF has considerable regard for human life and attempting to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties.
Oops! A severe case of short-memory-syndrome.
I'm afraid Israel has seen the Syrian example and learnt from it.
I can't remember the guys exact name - Shehadah? A very much wanted Palestinian last year. So whats the best way to get this guy out of a crowded apartment block?
Simple - a one ton bomb dropped from an F-16.
Easy - a "pinpoint prevention" by IDF jargon.
Just one problem - the other 10 (or was it 20) dead bodies, quite a few children if I recall.
The role of international court is not to take care of Israel security. We have an army and police to do that. Will you country submit the Bali bombers (or any other terrorist) to the international court? Should the US turn over the Al quaida operatives to the international court?Originally posted by michael
Well there is one option. If the PA doesn't investigate and prosecute, such a case would fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. Israel could takes its grievence there, but I have a feeling that this is unlikely, for obvious reasons.
We have our own court systems which are so much superb then the europeans. Why should Israel concede it's sovereignity to some kind of a debate club of elderly lawers who know nothing about the situation nor do they care?
The PA isn't a state. The International court deals with disputes among nantions, not a nation and a joke.
The process in court take years. Also, usualy we have to catch the war criminal first, before he stands in court. Which takes us back to square one... how do you think we should catch these terrorists?
Any european based, non jewish establishment is both anti american and anti zionist. There is inherited antisemtism in europe which makes that court automaticly biased against us.
It is a fact that even Natzi war criminals as well as infamouse arab terrorists got away with their crimes rather easily, usualy european courts arraged them idioticly short terms in prison, or supported the crimianals claims of unability to face justace in court.
Simple mathmatics lesson:Originally posted by michael
Oops! A severe case of short-memory-syndrome.
I'm afraid Israel has seen the Syrian example and learnt from it.
I can't remember the guys exact name - Shehadah? A very much wanted Palestinian last year. So whats the best way to get this guy out of a crowded apartment block?
Simple - a one ton bomb dropped from an F-16.
Easy - a "pinpoint prevention" by IDF jargon.
Just one problem - the other 10 (or was it 20) dead bodies, quite a few children if I recall.
10 dead human shields: non equal and smaller then 20,000 who where killed in Hamat, Syria.
Had we REALLY wanted to flatten Gaza city, we already have the weapons to do so.
Also, try to explain to me: how is it that a one ton bomb kills ONLY 10 human shields and not 100, or 1,000 civilians?
Explain to me, how does it come, that the IAF dropped only ONE bomb, when we have so many of those we could drop?
10 dead human shields instead of so many others, is the best solution to the "Shehade" problem with the weapons we have todate. Alas, Star Trek is only a TV show, no practical ideas there.
Your blind assumption about the United Nations politics is naive.PREVIOSLY POSTED BY JACO
Quite the list, no? Numbers don't lie. The UN represents the REST OF THE WORLD whether you accept it or not. If a country violates Human Rights anywhere in the world, the UN censures them, unless they have a powerful blind ally like the US to veto. Are you saying that ALL OF THESE VIOLATIONS ARE NOTHING BUT ANTI-SEMITISM? Please do, I'd like to hear it.
The fact remains that Israel has never been accused by the UN of the SEVERE catagory of human rights as the UN has 2 different catagories of human rights violations.
So the fact remains that although the UN basically is very strict with its treatment of Israel and turns a blind eye to many other countries and their violations, for political and financial reasons, EVEN the UN never placed the violations under the SEVERE section which is reserved for the really bad countries. Check the records of the United Nations and see for yourself that there are 2 places in which violations are introduced and Israel is in the mild one.
Secondly, the damage is done by the UN ganging up on Israel, even though the list is in the mild catagory, because people like yourself believe the list and the sheer numbers.
However, if you research you will see that many countries have terrible atrocities that go unmentioned by the United Nations.
If you do your research you will also find that quality and quantity may actually be diametrically opposed. So that means that if so many people chose to smoke cigarettes in the past century they must be right. Well, it so happened that ALL these people were misinformed and by the time the information got to them they were aleready addicted to cigarettes.
Additionally, do you think that when THE WORLD turned a blind eye to the Jewish Holocaust which took 6 million victims that the world was right? History has shown that often it is the minority, and or the single individual who have to fight THE REST OF THE WORLD. Unless YOU DO NOT WANT PROGRESS AND CREATIVITY you will then subscribe to a follow the leader mentality which will take for granted that these numbers tell the truths.
I hope this helps you in re evaluating what you read with a more critical eye for detailed analysis.
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