Israel's Ethical Army: The Best People Is The IDF

[Jako]

I inserted some of my responses here in italics in the box below.


[B]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No you're just being hyperbolic. Your're just a few adjectives from zionism is nazism, genocide, ethnic cleansing.........

Okay, how's this: To non-Jews, Zionism is genocide, ethnic cleansing, and racism.

As opposed to laying down to die for the sake of people who would cheer anyway? We said "Never Again". We sincerely and with our whole souls meant both of those words and the PLO will get nowhere until they too understand that.


So those are the only two options? Either fight back with tanks and missiles vs rocks or "lay down and die". What color is the sky in this simplistic world of yours? And what is this "Never Again"? When was the first time?

Actually in the Mish Patim or civil code inside of Exodus and Deuteronomy that phrase means "making the punishment fit the crime" to borrow a phrase from the Mikado. It's about justice and equity, not revenge. And it is vitally important in this day and age to make that distinction. The Israelis will defend themselves, they will not lay down. And that is not the same thing as aggression no matter what the 'conflict resolution' world view thinks. Giving in to terrorism is not peace no matter how bedraggled and miserable terrorists appear.

Too bad almost every other country in the world totally disagrees with you (other than the U.S.). The difference between defense and aggression is pretty obvious to me. When someone throws a ROCK at your TANK and you return fire with a rifle or a mortar shel, THAT is aggression, not defense. If the TANK wasn't there, neither would the rock-thrower. When the PEOPLE who's COUNTRY you ILLEGALLY OCCUPY have no legal recourse to fight for their rights, then I have a nice quote for you "You reap what you sow". If you sow hatred, you reap hatred.

Not that I am trying to justify some wacko blowing himself up in a crowded mall to kill innocents, but I also cannot justify the subjugation of a whole people on the basis of Zionist racist rhetoric.

An example of subjugation? I'm glad you asked.

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/dcipr...2002/0015.html

The PCBS figures released in April 2002 indicate that more than two-thirds of Palestinian households were living below the poverty line (1651 NIS, approximately US$340/month) in the first two months of the year 2002. In the West Bank, 57.8% of households were below the poverty line, while in the Gaza Strip the figure reached 84.6%.

Translating these figures into an individual level, more than two-thirds of the Palestinian population is living on less that $1.90 a day.

DCI/PS stresses that these figures indicate a disproportionate affect of poverty on children for three reasons:

1) More than half of Palestinian society is children. 53% of the Palestinian population is below the age of 18 years.
2) Moreover, fifty percent of Palestinians live in households of 9 members or more while the mean household size is about 7.0 persons. Mean household size is slightly higher in Gaza (7.8) than in the West Bank (6.6) persons. For this reason, high poverty rates in the Gaza Strip indicate that a greater proportion of children are living in poverty.
3) The areas most affected by Israeli closure also have the highest number of children. In Gaza City for example, more than half of the population is aged between 0-14 years old. In Khan Yunis refugee camp in the south of the Gaza Strip, 49.9% of the population is aged 14 years or younger. These areas are also the most severely affected by Israeli closure policies. Consequently, in both these areas unemployment amongst the adult population reaches 1/3 of the active labor force.

The PCBS statistics indicate that more than half of Palestinian households have lost more than 50% of their income since September 2000.

[Mediocrates]

A rock is not a 4Kg block of Semtex wrapped in sheet metal screws. A rock is not an SOP three man sniper squad like the one that shot to death 12 people at the Tomb of Joseph. A rock is not a gun that killed 3 rabbis from Hevron in the past 6 months.

Fact is Israelis have been subjected to something like 15,000 terror attacks since jihadtifada 2.0 began. Fact is, the 'rock' period of this war lasted about 3 months. After that it was striaight up war.

Yesy I've read those figures before. That is, sadly the effect of going to war. The PLO misthought that since the Israelis had more to lose, in terms of modern lifestyle and modern economics, that they would fold easily for the sake of comfort. They misthought that after each of the 11 times Sharon withdrew would be the last and they would cave. But that hasn't and will not happen. And it is foolish to think they will.

The fallacy that the PLO lives under is that the Jews will feel worse for the Palestinians than the Palestinians feel for themselves or that the world at large feels for the Palestinians for that matter. This is a fatal strategic flaw on their approach.

Where was the heaping condemnation of Israel when the Palestinians lived under one of the highest standards of living in the mid east? Let's examine that for a moment. According to the UN for FY2000 the Palestinians had as a macro group about $2500/yr income, marginally higher in fact for Palestinians working in the WB than those working in Israel. But either way it was based on cheap day labor. That's what their national economy was based on.

When they overplayed their cards and began transporting weapons in ambulances and shooting soldiers at checkpoints they sealed the the border and their economic fate. Work permits are down to ~15,000 or about 10% of their prior value and there about another 15,000 working illegally. Without that day labor they have no source of revenue.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Jako
Not that I am trying to justify some wacko blowing himself up in a crowded mall to kill innocents, but I also cannot justify the subjugation of a whole people on the basis of Zionist racist rhetoric.

No, Zionism involves the right of the Jewish people to live freely in the Jewish homeland. It has nothing to do with anything else.

The Palestinians are not subjugated -- that is an Arab-concocted myth to fool uninformed and gullible people.

The facts are that before the Palestinian Jihad-Genocide of innocent Jewish women and children, 99% of ALL Palestinians lived under self-rule. There was no Israeli military presence in Palestinian-occupied towns. These facts are the main point of what is being concealed by terrorism apologists who represent the Palestinian point of view.

Now, once the latest Palestinian Jihad to ethnically cleanse the Middle east of its Jewish inhabitants began, Israel was forced to take defensive measures against the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure.

I'm sorry that you don't agree with Israel's right to defend itself, and that you feel that stopping terrorism is equivalent to "subjugation," but that is a distorted view, completely devoid of any reality whatsoever.

In truth, the Palestinians are the ones who are perpetrating a genocide against the Jewish people of Israel, on a purely racist and anti-Semitic basis. It is the Palestinians who are violating the Human Rights of Israeli citizens and committing Crimes Against Humanity.

Also, so far as occupation is concerned, it is the Palestinians who are brutally occupying large parts of the Jewish homeland and, as I said before, are actively attempting to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of its Jewish citizens.

Obviously, Israel cannot tolerate such brutality launched against its citizens. Israelis are people, too, just like everyone else, deserving of Human Rights and dignity, and victims of Palestinian racism and terrorism.

[keren7]

? Sorry to burst your bubble, but JEWISH is not a nationality. ISRAELI is a nationality, JEWISH is a RELIGION, SEMITIC is a RACE. I'd figure you know this but clearly not. And I would imagine that millions of Jews would disagree with your "Zionism is part of being Jewish" statement.

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble habibi. Jewish is a nationality.

It's odd that Israelis are demanded to be super-human in war-zones where it is difficult to tell who is going to attack you and who is not. Why don't you try it out and then come and tell us how you knew before hand that this guy will/will not shoot.[/B]

The Israelis are just fighting a damn war against the aggressor palestinians. What part don't you get?

Again, I am straining to find your logic here. The Occupied Territories are creations of Israel, a warzone created by the government. IDF soldiers in the Occupied Territories are there to "protect Israeli interests" at the COST of Palestinian ones.

There are no occupied territories. There are disputed territories, no one siad that what the killer pals say is true and correct. And yes, IDF is wherever needed to protect Israeli lives.

"In the Gaza Strip, Israeli army bulldozers demolished three homes in the town of Rafah on Thursday, as well as two wells that provide water for thousands of residents, Palestinian witnesses said. The army did not immediately comment on the operation in Rafah." ([url]

The wells are dry, there is no water in Israel, stop living in 1001 arabian nights. The houses were demolished because it belongs to terrorists, can you threaten a maniac suicider with death? no, so to punish them IDF will keep on demolishing the suicider's homes. Maybe their moms will convince their lovely sons to stay alive.

. t just adds fuel to the fire, and brings Israelis DOWN to the TERRORISTS level (an eye for an eye, which is nicely medieval for 2003).

We try to keep our eyes where they should be.

ALL Palestinians find martyrdom the best form of not living? They would ALL rather die than live? Who filled you with all this hatred and lies?

85% of pals filled my head with this notion.

[danholo]

keren7:

The Israelis are just fighting a damn war against the aggressor palestinians. What part don't you get?

??

1. I wasn't responding to you but Jako
2. I was merely pointing out that accidents happen and in a hostile environment you cannot be absolutely sure who is hostile and who is not. Mistakes are made on the Israeli side and I believe that is the main reason for the high casualty ratio of Palestinians in the territories. Secondly, most of the casualties were males from the age 18 and above so it can be concluded that, at the time of the killing, they were mistaken for combatants or a hostile and were not just kids playing in a sand-box who were just targets to the "brutal Zionist aggressor" who cowardly picks the most vulnerable and innocent target.

This is the most usual anti-Israel claim anyway: An IDF soldier (read: a Jew) is a brutal mass-murder and occupier who arbitrarily or intentionally maims and murders Palestinian children for target practice or mere evilness which Jews so blatantly are.

People easily believe this claim. It's sad, but I try to fight against it.

[keren7]

Originally posted by danholo
keren7:

The Israelis are just fighting a damn war against the aggressor palestinians. What part don't you get?

1. I wasn't responding to you but Jako
2. I was merely pointing out that accidents happen and in a hostile environment you cannot be absolutely sure who is hostile and who is not. Mistakes are made on the Israeli side and I believe that is the main reason for the high casualty ration in Palestinian territories. Secondly, most of the casualties were males from the age 18 and above so it can be concluded that, at the time of the killing, they were mistaken for armed men and were not just kids playing in a sand-box.
3. I get every part.

Sorry, I got mixed up with the posts. Anyway, I meant what I said.

Shalom.

[danholo]

Ok. I edited my post a bit though.

[Israelforever]

In his June 24, 2002 speech, President Bush spelled out specific conditions that the Palestinian Arabs must fulfill before the U.S. will support giving them a state.

BUSH'S CONDITION: They must "engage in a sustained fight against them terrorists and dismantle their infrastructure."
THE PALESTINIAN ARABS' RECORD: They haven't arrested terrorists, outlawed terror groups, shut down bomb factories, or confiscated the terrorists' tens of thousands of weapons. The Palestinian Authority(PA) itself regularly orders, pays for, and glorifies the murders of Israelis.

BUSH'S CONDITION: They must "end incitement to violence in
official media and publicly denounce homicide bombings. "
THE PALESTINIAN ARABS' RECORD : The PA promotes a culture of
anti-Jewish and anti-American hatred in its media, schools, summer camps, officials' speeches, and sermons by PA-appointed clergymen.

BUSH'S CONDITION: T h ey must "elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror. "
THE PALESTINIAN ARABS' RECORD: Yasir Arafat and other arc h -
terrorists are still the leaders of the PA, and the "new" cabinet Arafat recently appointed consists almost e n t i rely of his previous cabinet ministers.

BUSH'S CONDITION: T h ey must "build a practicing democracy
based on t o l e rance and libert y. "
THE PALESTINIAN ARABS' RECORD: Newspapers that dissent from
Arafat's line a re suppressed ... Women are treated as second-class citizens...Christians are persecuted and pre s s u red to emigrate ... Jewish holy sites are desecrated.

PRESIDENT BUSH,
C R E ATING A PALESTINIAN ARAB STAT E
MEANS CREATING A NEW TERRORIST STAT E
M r. P r e s i d e n t , please don't ignore the Palestinian Arabs' record of violating your conditions. Giving the Palestinian Arabs a sovereign state will only strengthen their u n d e r lying culture of hatred and violence. It will enable them to bring in troops and
advanced weaponry from Iran, I r a q , and other terror regimes,as well as shoulder- launched missiles --like the ones recently fired at an Israeli airplane in Ke nya - - w h i ch
will threaten ev e ry plane taking off from Israel's airport s . No wonder a recent poll by Israel's most respected polling age n cy, the Hanoch Smith Institute, found 68% of Israelis believe that "regardless of the size or strength of a Palestinian State, if one is established it will constitute a threat to the State of Israel." IR A Q, SY R I A, A N D LI BYA WERE GI V E N SO V E R E I G N T Y. TH AT DI D N'T TU R N TH E M IN T O PE A C E-
LO V I N G NAT I O N S.

Why don't these Arabs try claiming Palestine Texas, they have just as much a calim on that land as they do Israel. At least Palestine TX actually exsits unlike a country Palestine which does not exsit.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Jako

? Sorry to burst your bubble, but JEWISH is not a nationality. ISRAELI is a nationality, JEWISH is a RELIGION, SEMITIC is a RACE. I'd figure you know this but clearly not. And I would imagine that millions of Jews would disagree with your "Zionism is part of being Jewish" statement.


Jako

You need to learn Jewish history to see that the entire concept of Judaism is based on being in the Land of Israel. The Jewish destiny is to practice Judaism IN the Land of Israel.

Very simple.

The word Zion is another word for Israel. Being a Zionist means wanting to be in Israel. Zionism is simply the desire to return to the Jewish Homeland, Israel, or Zion (another name.)

This is not something that happened in the past 200 years. This Zionism has been part and parcel of Jewish destiny since Abraham was promised the Promise Land to his Son Izaak and to his grandson Jacob, father of the 12 tribes of Israel.

There are profound connections by Jews to Israel and they go back many centuries before there were ever an Arab identity as we know it today.

But Jewish identity has remained connected to not only the Jewish faith which is taught through the Torah which teaches that Jews must continue to practice Torah wherever they may be, but are only going to achieve their destiny by returning to Israel and continuing their Torah/Jewish heritage and tradition there.

[Israelforever]

"Blueprint: " I don't think you can even pretend that any group who declares that Zionism is Racism and colonial expansion and occupation can be fair to Israel." Um, what is Zionism then? Just trying to take care of my fellow Jews and get rid of these dirty Gentiles? Zionism is racism, colonial expansion and occupation, so well said.

Why stop at the UN? Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, even Bishop Desmond Tutu have harshly criticized Israel's policies, and Israelis always scream "Anti-Semite" about it. If I criticize Zionism am I an anti-Semite?

All good stuff. None of it Anti-Semitic, but then again I'm not the expert.

Jako
sorry for the long post "[/B]

Jako thanks for the long post you hung yourself with your virulent anti-Semitic tripe. Do you want to know why we Jews scream Anti-Semite when someone criticizes Zionism, because as the great Rev. Martin Luther King said "Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism."

Here are some other quotes from the Rev. Martin Luther King that appeared in his, "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76. Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

"Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also that: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so.”

“You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.”

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism."

"The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate anti-Semitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist'and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.”

"Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

Never Again is what real Jews believe in, that is never again will we be killed by anyone. That means we will defend our right to live and will not rely on anyone but ourselves to protect us, for when we depend on others they always double cross us. Never Again is the Jewish War of Independence in Israel. The Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War, and now the war against genocide at the hands of the arabs and their dumb caucasian supporters. It is the Jewish people fighting against all odds against annihilation.
You want to know what Zionism is, it is the Jewish solution to the rest of the world's "Jewish Problem." Since loosing our land of Israel over 2,000 years ago we have been at the mercy of non-Jews and in ever country that we have lived in they have persecuted, segregated, and even killed us long before the Holocaust. Any defense was useless due to our small numbers and usual unwillingness to fight against all odds. We could not live as exiles in the rest of the world’s countries so we lobbied for the reclaiming of our land, Israel. In 1921 the British partitioned their lands in the Middle East promising the Jews all of the lands that make up modern Israel. The "palestinians" are occupying our land, and desecrating it. Although I believe they should get a state in Palistine Texas. They have just as much a claim on that as these phony arabs have on Israel. At least Palistine TX, actually exists unlike the fictitious "palestine."
How is Zionism colonialism or occupation when we Jews are living on our land, infact according to the Bible we would have to cross the Euphrates river before we were occupying any ones land. Jako go on and revel in the new masquerade, and proclaim that you do not hate the Jews, you’re just 'anti-Zionist'! We Jews know what you really are, no better than an arab terrorist, member of the klan or even a Nazi. But if you insist go one pretending. G-d Bless Israel, the people of Israel and the IDF. G-d Bless the JDL, ZOA and Herut aswell.

P.S. I believe Rev. Martin Luther King a civil rights leader and fighter of racism was and is an expert on the topic of racism and racists like you Jako.

http://www.herut.org.il
http://www.ZOA.org
http://www.JDL.org

Shalom
Jason Rocklin

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Israelforever
CONDITION: They must "engage in a sustained fight against them terrorists and dismantle their infrastructure."

CONDITION: They must "end incitement to violence in
official media and publicly denounce homicide bombings. "

CONDITION: T h ey must "elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror. "

CONDITION: T h ey must "build a practicing democracy
based on t o l e rance and libert y. "
THE PALESTINIAN ARABS' RECORD: Newspapers that dissent from
Arafat's line a re suppressed ... Women are treated as second-class citizens...Christians are persecuted and pre s s u red to emigrate ... Jewish holy sites are desecrated.

Strike 4, Palestinian lies should be retired.

[Jako]

keren7: So according to you Jewish IS in fact a nationality. all this time I though it was the JEWISH faith, not the ISRAELI faith. Does a Jew listen to God first, or the Prime Minister? Sorry, but you're wrong here. If someone is a Jew, this by no means is to say that he/she is automatically also Israeli and a Zionist.

"The Israelis are just fighting a damn war against the aggressor palestinians. What part don't you get?"

Good one. The aggressor in this case is BY FAR the less strong, the less organized, and the less deadly. The Palestinians are pent up like animals in one of the worst places in the world to live in, they are not fighting with aggression, I would imagine a lot of it is simply for their survival, or so they would think.

There are no occupied territories. There are disputed territories, no one siad that what the killer pals say is true and correct. And yes, IDF is wherever needed to protect Israeli lives

You should add "in my world" to each of these statements. Because it's not planet Earth. Here's a good IDF link for you to see, it's one where they have been busted for FIRING OUTLAWED FLACHETTE TANK SHELLS at 3 Palestinians.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...ID=0&listSrc=Y

According to Palestinian witnesses, nine individuals were hurt in the shelling, three of whom were children playing soccer. The sources said that what the IDF perceived to be rocket launchers were actually moveable goalposts.

haha moveable goalposts look SO much like rocket launchers.

The wells are dry, there is no water in Israel, stop living in 1001 arabian nights. The houses were demolished because it belongs to terrorists, can you threaten a maniac suicider with death? no, so to punish them IDF will keep on demolishing the suicider's homes. Maybe their moms will convince their lovely sons to stay alive.

Yeah, I mean aggression against the Palestinians has ALWAYS paid off good dividends. And they'll probably THANK the IDF for bombing those wells, until their children start dying.

ALL Palestinians find martyrdom the best form of not living? They would ALL rather die than live? Who filled you with all this hatred and lies?

Your response to this is that "85% of pals filled my head with this notion." So I guess I want to congratulate you on talking to every Palestinian on the face of the planet, that's some good census work.

Batman : You need to learn Jewish history to see that the entire concept of Judaism is based on being in the Land of Israel. The Jewish destiny is to practice Judaism IN the Land of Israel.

And EXCLUSIVELY? This means that ONLY Jewish people can live in Israel? Hard to believe people would see it as exclusionary.

IsraelForever: Um, first off, though Martin Luther King was quite the dude, I have absolutely no interest in what he has to say about Zionism OR Anti-Semitism. I don't care. Just because he says it is so doesn't mean it is.

Secondly, bahahaha to this:

How is Zionism colonialism or occupation when we Jews are living on our land, infact according to the Bible we would have to cross the Euphrates river before we were occupying any ones land. Jako go on and revel in the new masquerade, and proclaim that you do not hate the Jews, you’re just 'anti-Zionist'! We Jews know what you really are, no better than an arab terrorist, member of the klan or even a Nazi. But if you insist go one pretending. G-d Bless Israel, the people of Israel and the IDF. G-d Bless the JDL, ZOA and Herut aswell.


Wll said. But when you say according to "the Bible" say YOUR Bible. Not mine. You are living on the land that according to YOU is yours, not according to anyone else. No divine providence put Jews In Israel, Europeans did.

So this is for you: Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: Zionism is Racism for non-Jews.



Jako
If Anti-Semite is a synonym for "realist" then I'm guilty (;

[Frans_1]

Wll said. But when you say according to "the Bible" say YOUR Bible. Not mine. You are living on the land that according to YOU is yours, not according to anyone else. No divine providence put Jews In Israel, Europeans did.

So this is for you: Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: Zionism is Racism for non-Jews.

.



Jako
If Anti-Semite is a synonym for "realist" then I'm guilty

To the person and the rest who utters statements like these : not according to you and which mob ?

[Frans_1]

fyi, not according to "him/her" , it is according to laws of sovereignty which you are completely ignorant about.

But you don't even have a Bible to tell you who you are.

And then you are one to talk, who comes from Canada.

If those same anti-Israel arguments are applied with equal ferocity to every country in the world, no country would end up legitimate. Most even less.

[Jako]

Originally posted by Frans_1
fyi, not according to "him/her" , it is according to laws of sovereignty which you are completely ignorant about.

But you don't even have a Bible to tell you who you are.

And then you are one to talk, who comes from Canada.

If those same anti-Israel arguments are applied with equal ferocity to every country in the world, no country would end up legitimate. Most even less.

? You lost me. I'm very familiar with the laws of sovereignty but I'm unfamiliar what specific ones you mean. Human Rights organizations? The United Nations? Whose "laws of sovereignty"? Israel's? If so who made them?

I don't have a Bible to tell me who I am? Again, you lost me. I have plenty of Bibles to tell me who I am. Some parts of the Koran, parts of the Torah, parts of the New Testament, Old Testament, some Zoroastrianism texts, I actually did a minor in Religious Studies at university.

What tells me who I am is ME and my actions and my thoughts. My god is my companion, not my master.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "you are one to talk, you come from Canada." ? Please explain why being Canadian makes me somehow unable to comment.

But then again, if you know as little about Canada as you seem to about the rest of the non-Israel world, it's probably just a knee-jerk reaction...



Jako