Turkish navy to escort Gaza-bound vessels

[Reffo]

This is crazy talk. Israel would only ever use nuclear weapons as an absolute last resort. Period.

[Cellis]

This is crazy talk. Israel would only ever use nuclear weapons as an absolute last resort. Period.

Israel has the warheads just in case a crazy bastard like Ahmadinejad attempts to send nukes. Israel had chance to use nuclear warheads (I bet Israel had them even before 67) at 6 days war but the arab alliance didn't worth it.

[johnvonneumann]

We were talking about whether IDF or TDF was more advanced. I answered this point and then you tried to change the subject. Nuclear tipped cruise missiles fired from planes or submarines can be used as both strategic or tactical (battle field) weapons. They can be used against ships or entire fleets. Nobody knows exactly what kind of nuclear wepons Israel has, but they are likely to include tactical ones too. That make the IDF pretty advanced.

Actually, the current Russian military doctrine is based on early use of tactical nuclear weapons. The doctrine published in 2000 put a great emphasis on this fact. In 2010, after a lot of outcry in the West, the new doctrine somewhat reduced this emphasis, but it is still there. Israel, of course, does not publish an official military doctrine, particularly one concerning nuclear weapons, thus I cannot oblige your curiosity. You will have to make your own guesses.

[Cellis]

Sorry for jumping from one subject to another. I love discussions about military power and technology. I hope we come across elsewhere to discuss these all.

[farmboy]

Are you tossing couple of nuclear warheads to an empty desert or a country with missile defense (plus coming up nato air defense) systems?

A successful nuclear device will not be delivered by a rocket, it will travel slowly by container ship either assembled or as components. We have entered a new phase of warfare.

[Cellis]

A successful nuclear device will not be delivered by a rocket, it will travel slowly by container ship either assembled or as components. We have entered a new phase of warfare.

Brilliant. There are some intelligences with well known success in the public, yet there are not well known intelligences that successfully hid for decades. Just saying.

[johnvonneumann]

Here is a DEBKAfile assessment of the situation and, please note, of Israeli and Turkish naval capabilities. This piece also brings up another salient point - the Turkish economy. Remember, Erdogan's standing with the Turkish public is based above all on the perceived success of his economic policies, which have made many Turks feel much better off than they used to be under the past secularist governments (which followed statists approaches to the economy inherited from the days of Ataturk). The Turkish army, which remains a bastion of secularism, is, without any doubt, very unhappy about the current situation. If the economy turns sour and the Turkish public turns against the government, it's ability to push around the military will be greatly reduced. If, in addition, Erdogan's policy leads to a public humiliation for Turkey, the Islamist government will certainly not last long.

[Mediocrates]

The Turkish military is currently embroiled in a slow motion massacre in the eastern part of the country against Kurds. And Iraqi Kurds. It will be interesting to see if Obama engages in another humanitarian war and directs the US to stay in Iraq to backstop the Iraqi army against Turkish invasion and massacres. If he does, and the Turks get involved in a semi-covert shooting war with Iraq and the US then that is the time for Israel to press full on on all fronts, economic, diplomatic, media and military. In either case it's time to cobble together a shared military exercise with Greece, and Bulgaria. Give it a quaint name like "Program Lepanto" or something to stick in the Turk's eye.

[johnvonneumann]

Well, personally I do not think at this stage it is wise for Israel to confront both Turkish secular nationalism and islamism, at least as long the two are clearly enemies and the outcome of the struggle between then is not settled. Many people assume that the islamist are bound to win the the Turkish secular establishment (including the army) has been emaciated, but the game is not over yet and a lot will depend on what happens from now on to the Turkish economy. So I think it would be wiser for Israel to show to the world, including the Turks, that it is in conflict with the Turkish islamists and not with Turkey itself. Actions such as active support for the Kurds should remain on the cards, but at this time it is better to adopt a wait and see policy, while leaving the US and EU to try to sort out the mess that they largely created (by legitimising Erdogan and his brand of islamism).

[Mediocrates]

Turkey detains 40 Israeli businessmen at the airport, basically threatening them and confiscating their passports.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/201...r-turkish.html
BTW how long before they rename Ataturk Airport something like Jihad Airport?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...117910,00.html
http://www.iba.org.il/world/?lang=en...=784165&type=1
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...79508&fid=1725
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=236722

[Mediocrates]

In the meantime Turkey is pressuring Egypt to expel their Israeli ambassador:

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/201...ance-with.html

While Egypt builds a wall around the Israeli embassy:

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=236739

[Mediocrates]

Turkish member of Palmer commission criticized at home. Apparently the Global Jewish Lobby controls most of Turkey too.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/201...ommission.html

the ability of the pro-Israel lobby to influence such commissions,

[johnvonneumann]

Here is the StrategyPage assessment. I have been reading them for years and I can't recall them being wrong about military matters. If you read their discussion pages you will find that they are read by quite a few Turks, clearly with military background, who (at least in the past) tended to be very pro-Israel. As I wrote earlier, I think the economy is now the key factor, and it is better for Israel to retain a defensive posture and try to maintain (as much as possible) friendly relations with the Turkish military. Of course, this approach did not work in the case of Iran, but Khomeini slaughtered thousands of Iranian officers and the Turkish islamists have still fat to go to reach this point.

[Cellis]

Turkey detains 40 Israeli businessmen at the airport, basically threatening them and confiscating their passports.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/201...r-turkish.html
BTW how long before they rename Ataturk Airport something like Jihad Airport?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...117910,00.html
http://www.iba.org.il/world/?lang=en...=784165&type=1
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...79508&fid=1725
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=236722

Question one: What are the Israeli citizens doing in Turkey specially at this critical time?
Question two: Do you have any idea how horrible to experience Israeli border police once a non-Jewish, non-Israeli arrives at any Israeli airport?

I don't see anything wrong here.

[johnvonneumann]

Question one: What are the Israeli citizens doing in Turkey specially at this critical time?

I gather these were Israeli businessmen going about their usual business. Has Turkey already declared war?

Question two: Do you have any idea how horrible to experience Israeli border police once a non-Jewish, non-Israeli arrives at any Israeli airport?

Let's not exaggerate. It surely depends on how suspicious you seem. Every time I visited, everything went smoothly and I am not really Jewish (well, that maybe arguable but, in any case, not in an obvious way). My wife is Japanese, she has been there several times (without me) and in every case there was nothing to complain about. In fact I have found entering Canada (with my British passport) a lot nastier an experience.

I don't see anything wrong here.

You are clearly trying very hard not to.