The worst danger in Israel's history

[NewsGuy]

Not sure where this will go, but it is possible that we are now witnessing one of the most dangerous developments in Israel's history -- the uprising against Israel's military and political policies staged by Israel's left-wing activists.

Background

It all started with 50 IDF leftist officers who took it upon themselves to decide that they will refuse military orders to serve in the Palestinian-occupied territories.

Theses officers wrote a letter that was published in the press by Israel's professional leftists. Later, 150 more IDF soldiers added their signatures to the letter.

Within a week, a large crowd gathered in Tel Aviv to protest Israel's self-defense policies, urging others serving in the IDF to disobey the orders of their military commanders.

At the gathering, arch-leftist Shulamit Aloni spoke, and then left-winger Uri Avneri read a letter from Arafat to the audience, also urging IDF soldiers to disobey orders.

My conclusions

1. When soldiers disobey direct orders of their commanders, this is called insubordination and they should be immediately court marshalled.

2. There cannot exist a situation where soldiers decide that they will no longer follow the commands of their superiors, because the military would fail if there is no command structure that has authority.

3. The leftist political activists who are inciting IDF soldiers to disobey orders are guilty of treason. It is one thing to hold different political views, but meddling with military operations and sabotaging the military command chain at wartime is nothing less than treason, IMHO.

4. This is further proof that Israeli leftists are trying to tear down the Israeli democracy. These leftists still have not fully undestood that there was a democratic election in Israel, in which the leftist candidates were defeated by the will of the Israeli nation.

5. If this movement towards treason and anarchy persists, there will be grave consequences to Israel's military capacity to defend against Arab military threats. There will be morale problems and social divisions that will waeken Israel's military establishment, which is the only thing preventing the Arabs from destroying Israel.

6. By reading the words of Arafat, who has publicly called for the complete annihilation of Israel, to the cheering leftist Israeli audience, there is a strong statement that there is an equivalency between Arafat's goals and the goals of the extreme Israeli leftists.

7. The Israeli supreme court must rule immediately on the legality of the leftists' actions to determine whether the left-wing uprising is valid political expression, or an illegal incitement to treason.

Otherwise, a catastrophy might happen in Israel, brought about by this situation, one that might devastate Israeli society.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Not sure where this will go, but it is possible that we are now witnessing one of the most dangerous developments in Israel's history -- the uprising against Israel's military and political policies staged by Israel's left-wing activists.

I have read also that some Israelis are able to pull strings to keep their sons out of duty in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. There are also some who become religious all of the sudden and decide to study instead. Combined with this left-wing action, this has to be demoralizing to those who are left to serve on this relatively more dangerous assignment. Is there a solution that does not leave the poorest and least-connected to fight the battles, as so often happens?

[sharonbn]

NewsGuy,

Background
It all started with 50 IDF leftist officers [...] Theses officers wrote a letter that was published in the press by Israel's professional leftists
Not true. The political affiliation of the soldiers in question is unknown since they deliberately separated themselves from any relation to political party/organizations. They did so in order to express that they condemn IDF actions in the occupied territories from a universal-humanist stand. An example of this separation is the fact that the posting of the petition in the newspapers was funded from their own private resources. To date, they refuse to be funded or any way be asociated with any political party/organization.

At the gathering, arch-leftist Shulamit Aloni spoke, and then left-winger Uri Avneri read a letter from Arafat...
They’re not the only ones: A former head of Israel's internal security service, Ami Ayalon, has given his support to the protest, saying he is "very concerned about the large number of unarmed Palestinian children shot by Israeli troops."

Conclusions
1. When soldiers disobey direct orders of their commanders, this is called insubordination and they should be immediately court marshalled.

This is true. Moreover, disciplinary actions were already taken against some of the soldiers who signed the petition. I can say that the soldiers who signed the petition knew and are ready to face the consequences of their protest. This is unlike other groups in Israeli society who avoid serving the army without paying any cost.

3. The leftist political activists who are inciting IDF soldiers to disobey orders are guilty of treason.
There are no such activists. Only after the petition was publicized, support was expressed by Left wing political figures.

4. This is further proof that Israeli leftists are trying to tear down the Israeli democracy. These leftists still have not fully understood that there was a democratic election in Israel, in which the leftist candidates were defeated by the will of the Israeli nation.
Oh really? what about Israeli rightists? Did they accept the voter’s choice when Yitzhak Rabin was elected? and I’m not talking only about the murder of the PM, the act was preceded by numerous demonstrations, on which protesters showed pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms. They also paraded in the streets carrying a coffin with Rabin’s picture on it.
Unlike the rightists demonstrations which usually end up with the police having to intervene to keep the order, Left-wing demonstrations were always held with respect to the law and public order (I'm speaking with first-hand experience of both). I believe this fact alone shows who is a menacing danger to democracy and the sovereignty of Israel.

5. If this movement towards treason and anarchy persists, there will be grave consequences to Israel's military capacity to defend against Arab military threats. There will be morale problems and social divisions that will weaken Israel's military establishment, which is the only thing preventing the Arabs from destroying Israel.
I totally disagree with you. The Left wing of the political map is responsible for some of the great advancements of Israel towards peace and stability. For example, IDF invaded Lebanon in 1982 and conquered almost half the country, surrounding and bombing the capital Beirut. All this was the responsibility of one man – Minister of defense Ariel Sharon (maybe he should be called minister of defiance.) Then came the incident of Sabra and Shatilla. It was the big demonstration (coined “The 400,000”) of the left wing that caused the Israeli public to open their eyes and their mouths to the actions of the government. Later on, in the 90’s it was again the initiative of the “Four mothers” and other left wing movements that finally stirred public opinion into realizing the futility of staying in Lebanon. Only after realizing the shift in public opinion, Barak made the withdrawal from Lebanon a main issue in his 1999 campaign.
Regarding the issue at hand, A poll conducted for Israel radio said 31% of Israelis supported the protesting officers. (BBC news, Feb 1st )
This proves that there is growing genuine concern in a large portion of the Israeli public regarding the efficiency, justification and validity of the recent military actions decided by the Israel government. In a democracy, You cannot overlook to protest of such a large portion of the public. To call these concerns “morale problems” is to turn a blind eye at a boiling problem that if not addressed will erupt later as public outrage with grave consequences.

The major question that the people are asking is: “If the military actions cannot be morally justified, then what are we defending?”

Militaristic actions are problematic to begin with. This can be seen in the recent attempt by the US to gather support for military action against Iraq. This attempt is met with fierce opposition in western Europe and even in the UN (regardless of the validity of such an action). Thus, in a democracy, the public must be assured and reassured of the justification and efficiency of military actions to endorse them. Without meticulously keeping moral values, even in violent times, it will become increasingly difficult to defend military actions.

6. By reading the words of Arafat, who has publicly called for the complete annihilation of Israel, to the cheering leftist Israeli audience, there is a strong statement that there is an equivalency between Arafat's goals and the goals of the extreme Israeli leftists.
By reading the words of the former leader of the outlawed “Kach” movement, Meir Cahana, who publicly called for the complete annihilation of Palestinians there is a strong statement that there is an equivalency between Cahana’s fascist goals and the goals of the extreme Israeli rightists like Avigdor Liberman, Uzi Landau, Effi Eitam, et al.

Looking at the violent actions of right extremists Igal Amir, Baruch Goldstein and Yona Avrushmi and the support for such actions that is expressed by Right-wing political figures makes a strong statement that these opinions pose a real danger to the democratic character of the state of Israel and should be referred to as treason.

7. The Israeli supreme court must rule immediately on the legality of the leftists' actions to determine whether the left-wing uprising is valid political expression, or an illegal incitement to treason.
To date, Israeli supreme court and Knesset chose to pass judgment on the extreme right political movements, declaring "Kach" and related movements ("Cahana hai") outlawed organizations.

PS
To demonstrate the hazards of over-patriotism to democracy and free speech take a look at this MSNBC news article

[NewsGuy]

Hi sharonbn,

"The political affiliation of the soldiers in question is unknown since they deliberately separated themselves from any relation to political party/organizations... To date, they refuse to be funded or any way be asociated with any political party/organization."

The official funding is an open question, since the Leftists have offered to pay for legal fees for the draft evaders, and the Leftists have also donated a huge amount of their time and resources to support the insurrection. Just looking at the costs of organizing, promoting, and staffing of the demonstration, I'd be surprised if we're not looking at very large sums of monetary value.

As for their political affiliation, their position, per se, makes them Leftists, IMO. Theirs is not a right-wing or centrist position, but rather an extreme Leftist political platform.

Whether the radical Leftists politicians joined in after the letter and before the demonstration, or whether they actually precipitated this dangerous new movement, the fact remains that this is a Leftist official platform.

In fact, Sharon and Mofaz were announced an investigation as to the extent of Leftist party involvement and whether the political opposition is behind the situation.



"A former head of Israel's internal security service, Ami Ayalon, has given his support to the protest, saying he is "very concerned about the large number of unarmed Palestinian children shot by Israeli troops."

Ami Ayalon's failed policies that contributed to the extremely poor job he performed during his tenure as Shin Bet chief, are largely to blame for the current mess Israel is in. To a great extent, his failures were fertile ground for Arafat to conclude that the Palestinians could win through terrorism.

Sure, he's entitled to have any political views he wants, but to most Israelis an association with Ami Ayalon him is not a badge of honor.

In fact, Ayalon's name keeps on creeping up often, since his scathing criticism of Israeli military policy, the Israeli political system, and Israeli society in general, is widely distributed in anti-Semitic and anti-Israel literature and Web sites worldwide.



I can say that the soldiers who signed the petition knew and are ready to face the consequences of their protest. This is unlike other groups in Israeli society who avoid serving the army without paying any cost.

That's a very good point. They are prepared to sit in jail for years just to express their point of view. I think that this is especially true for the new recruits who are about 18 years old and think that sitting in jail for what they mistakenly perceive as a good cause, is like a high-school slumber party. I would be interested to see these what these "soldiers" have to say for themselves 2 years down the road. btw - Notice of course that Shulamit Aloni, Yossi Sarid and Ami Ayalon are not prepared to sit in jail to champion this cause.




what about Israeli rightists? Did they accept the voter’s choice when Yitzhak Rabin was elected? and I’m not talking only about the murder of the PM, the act was preceded by numerous demonstrations, on which protesters showed pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms. They also paraded in the streets carrying a coffin with Rabin’s picture on it.

First of all, it was only a tiny minority group of rightists who held the extreme views you mention, and those groups and those activities were subsequently made illegal (and for good reason).

Secondly, the rightists, seeing the complete failure of Rabin and Peres' Arab-appeasing policies, did the "right" thing extacly: They went to elections and voted in a government that better represented the nation. This was done in a democratic, civilized process.

Unlike today's Leftists, the rightists did not attempt to destroy Israeli society with what might amount to treason.



Unlike the rightists demonstrations which usually end up with the police having to intervene to keep the order, Left-wing demonstrations were always held with respect to the law and public order (I'm speaking with first-hand experience of both).

As it turns out, this was absolutely not the case last week, when the Leftists demonstrators who were stationed outside Ariel Sharon's residence in Jerusalem were scuffling with passers-by. The reason this came to light was the suicide bomber who happened to blow himself up right near the Leftist demonstration, so there was wider than usual news coverage of the demonstration and its scuffles.



I totally disagree with you. The Left wing of the political map is responsible for some of the great advancements of Israel towards peace and stability.

IMO, the only thing "great" that resulted from Leftist policies is the great number of innocent Israelis murdered by Arafat's terror machine, which is fueled by encouragement from the Israeli Leftists.

For example, just a few weeks ago, while there was a full-scale massacre of Israeli citizens committed by Arafat's Fatah terrorist organization, which publicly took responsibility for the mass murders, the Israeli leftists decided to pay a friendly solidarity visit to Arafat in Ramallah to show their strong support for him.

As for Lebanon, the cowardly and disasterous retreat imposed by Barak and his leftist bosses has now placed Israel in a terrible situation. The Hizbullah is stronger than ever, massing thousands of tons of Iranian weapons of mass destruction right on Israel's doorstep, while still shooting missiles periodically into Israeli population centers. This is the legacy of the Leftist policies in Lebanon.



Regarding the issue at hand, A poll conducted for Israel radio said 31% of Israelis supported the protesting officers. ... In a democracy, You cannot overlook to protest of such a large portion of the public.

I haven't seen that poll reported elsewhere (maybe I just missed it). But I dont believe for a moment that it is accurate, because of Ariel Sharon's soaring popularity in the polls. Something doesn't jive.

If in fact the Leftists account for such a large portion of Israeli society (which again, I think is false) then they will have the opportunity to elect their own representatives. But every time there are elections, the Leftists announce that they are tremendously popular, but then only win a very small number of seats in the Knesset.

I think that if elections were held today, either Sharon would be reelected or Netanyahu maybe, but either way, they would have no problem forming a coalition that could completely leave the Leftists out.



"The major question that the people are asking is: “If the military actions cannot be morally justified, then what are we defending?”

I don't know who's asking that, when it is plain to see that defending oneself against mass murderers is of course moral and necessary for anyone concerned with survival.

True, the Leftists oppose defending the Jewish settlements, and think that Jews have no moral right to live in large parts of Israel, but that is part of a big Leftist misconception, thinking that if the Jews turn over more land to the Arabs, there will miraculously be everlasting peace. In reality, it is not a dispute over partial land, but an overall strategy of the Arabs to eliminate the Jews from ALL of Israel.


To date, Israeli supreme court and Knesset chose to pass judgment on the extreme right political movements, declaring "Kach" and related movements ("Cahana hai") outlawed organizations.

Yes, and now it's time to apply equal justice to the extreme Left, as well.

[McSceptic]

I'd agree that a failure to follow orders is a court martial offence, but that doesn't mean the soldier is guilty, only that there is a case to be answered.

I understood that the IDF had instituted a code of ethics to ensure that soldiers had a frame of reference to assess their orders against.

After the events in Europe, it's been recognised that "just following orders" is not enough, and that servicemen must give some thought to what they are asked to do. Difficult, I know.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
After the events in Europe, it's been recognised that "just following orders" is not enough, and that servicemen must give some thought to what they are asked to do. Difficult, I know.

Sure, but there is a HUGE difference between a fascist regime carrying out the genocide of a non-combatant nation, and between the democratic Israelis rooting out the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure, while taking utmost care not to harm innocent civilians.

And actually, "following orders" is essential to the functioning of any army.

If soldiers in a democratic country disagree with the government's policies, they are free to vote in the next elections for a candidate who more closely represents their political views, but they are not free to disobey their commanders when they are being deployed in battle. If they do, they must face a military court.

[ibrodsky]

I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I just want to make one point.

Israel's left simply doesn't get what is going on.

Arafat rejected Barak's proposal and started a war because he doesn't want peace, he wants to destroy Israel. The Palestinian terrorists don't purposely kill civilians because they want to end the (legal) occupation, but because they want to end the Jews.

Militant Islam's goal is to destroy Western civilization, and Israel is simply the first target. And a rather small one at that.

I would like to see the left get 400,000 to rally for peace with the Palestinians now. The left doesn't get it: most Israelis realize that Oslo was a terrible mistake.

The protesting officers have provided tremendous motivation for the Islamists to turn the war up a notch. They see Israeli society splitting from within.

The only way Israel can survive in this, the most dangerous period in its history, is by being united.

To support racist Islamists' calls for getting Ariel Sharon (today Iran said he should be tried and executed) is to say, in effect, that the Islamists are right. The reason they hate Sharon is not because Christians killed a bunch of Palestinians in Lebanon -- the Palestinians killed plenty of Christians and destroyed the whole country -- but because Sharon is a symbol of Israel's military prowess.

Ariel Sharon's "crime" is that he surrounded the Egyptian army and then showed mercy by not annihilating them. That is why they hate Ariel Sharon, and Israelis who aid them in attacking Sharon are fools. If the day comes when they can drag Sharon off to the Hague, it will mean that Israel has been totally defeated.

[Flame]

I really really really don't understand how some Jews can feel that way. Have a soft spot for wild savages that want to kill you... and knowing that Israel was created by the League of Nations, after 20 years of meetings... to suggest Israel is an illegal occupier... just don't get it. The borders were flimsy, the arabs attacked and like all nations who overcome the enemy... the land is re-established. How any Jew living in Israel sees the P's as having any validity boggles the mind. They are arab muslims of mixed nationality calling themselves palestinians... they have no history as a "people," they offer nothing for the land they want their state to occupy... and if by some horrible fluke they get this state... what's to be proud as a nation on earth???? They swindled, lied, murdered, set up an elaborate PR game to win sympathy... nothing to be proud of as far as human decency goes. Everything they do to get this state has not even been earned, but will be born of brutal savagery... everything America would be ashamed of, is what is hailed as wonderful? Just don't get it at all.

[NewsGuy]

Hey sharonbn,

I hope we didn't scare you off with strongly worded replies.

I think that even those who disagree with your POV still respect your views and would like to hear more of what you think.

[sharonbn]

I must admit I find more joy in the intellectual debate I’m having with A-Palestinian regarding Zionism, than participating in such “flame wars” as seen above and in most threads here.

For me such postings as the ones from ibrodsky and flame serve no purpose other than allow the author to express his/her aggressiveness and emotions (they certainly don't contribute anything to the issue of this thread.) They only clutter the thread. Maybe a more active moderation is required here...

For an example, take a look at the title of the thread:
"The worst danger in Israel's history"
Without addressing the issue of rating the officers' petition as "the worst" (WOW... up until now Israel was a heaven on earth with minor problems like who will be Maccabee’s next captain. Then along came the officers’ protest…) The title of the thread should be something like “The Officers’ letter” or maybe
“The Officers’ letter – dangerous criminal move or legitimate democratic opposition?”

But hey, I’m just another elitist snobbish “Haaretz”-reading "Moment"-going leftist.

I will post something when I have the time and energy.

BTW, what are the ratings attached to each thread and who determines them?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn

For me such postings as the ones from ibrodsky and flame serve no purpose other than allow the author to express his/her aggressiveness and emotions (they certainly don't contribute anything to the issue of this thread.) They only clutter the thread. Maybe a more active moderation is required here...

Nonsense. A discussion about the "worst danger in Israel's history" has to consider militant Islam and how the actions of various Israeli groups thwart or aid it.

You can dismiss my post because it was strongly worded (though hardly an ad hominem attack or vulgar), but you can't dismiss the issues I raised.

That's not to say that Israeli leftists don't have the right to exist or advocate their ideas. But what they are doing right now is not seeking political office or voicing opinions. They are trying to disrupt the IDF from doing what a freely-elected government is directing it to do. They are also expressing solidarity -- whether they know it or not -- with forces bent on Israel's destruction.

[NewsGuy]

sharonbn,

"I must admit I find more joy in the intellectual debate I’m having with A-Palestinian regarding Zionism, than participating in such “flame wars” as seen above and in most threads here."

I personally woudn't call it flame wars, and I just presumed you were interested in this topic because you posted to it.



"BTW, what are the ratings attached to each thread and who determines them?"

At the bottom of each thread there is a pull-down menu that allows readers to rate the thread as they please. Anyone who feels like it can select a rating of 1 to 5 stars for any thread. For example, I just rated this thread a 5 (best).

As more readers rate a thread, the number of stars becomes an "average" of those ratings.

[Flame]

So expressing what's in your heart and deeply felt concerns is flaming?????? Flaming is basically attacking a poster personally or going on insane tirates. Expressing my opinions is not flaming.

Anyhow... this is what I think is the only solution. Every single Jew in Israel needs to relocate to the US. This is the safest place on the planet for us.

Get out, the arabs have nothing more to say. No occupation, no human rights abuse... zip zero. Get the hell out of Israel and come to America, making the Jewish community stronger. The arab world has the us by the balls and once again, the world is going after us. They weren't happy to just get rid of Jews in Europe, send survivors packing... no... can't be happy just to allow Jews to exist within their own little slice of the planet.

Israel come to America!!!!!!! It's not worth total anniliation.

[L@mplighterM]

Just been sitting here looking at children’s drawings from the holocaust online, I imagine they are not to different from pictures children are drawing in Israel right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

Move to the US might not be a bad idea or as an alternative become the next state of the US. Then their problems would come to an end quickly. I suspect the earth in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be glazed within a week.

[sharonbn]

Just been sitting here looking at children’s drawings from the holocaust online, I imagine they are not to different from pictures children are drawing in Israel right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

I imagine they are not to different from pictures Palestinian children are drawing right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

Move to the US might not be a bad idea or as an alternative become the next state of the US...

As an idealist Zionist living in Israel, I must say I am shocked and appalled to read Flame and L@mplighterM's suggestions to end the conflict. If this is the kind of support the Diaspora Jews are willing to give, I pass.

First of all, there is absolutely no justification for painting the reality with such black colors. Israel is NOT facing the worst situation in its history. Far from it. Israel today is the strongest country in the region, militarily as well as economically speaking.

And while we're on the jubject of history, let me refresh your memory:
During the war of independence of 1948, most countries believed that the newly born Israeli state, with its flimsy armed forces and non existent air force can not withhold the invasion of the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Some Israelis believed that Ben-Gurion was too haste to declare an Israeli state without first securing the support of world powers. After the war was over, it was found out that one third of the Israeli army was annihilated, the Israeli economy was in ruins. Just then came the flood of Jewish immigrants, tripling the population within 3 years. Hastily built “ma’abarot” sprung up everywhere, where conditions were poor and diseases were spread. Mortality among babies came close to 40%. Some economists estimated that Israel would collapse into anarchy if the situation persists.

On the first day of Yom Kippur war on October 6, 1973, Egypt’s forces swiftly crossed the Suez Canal and overran the Bar-Lev line. In the north, Israel was outnumbered nearly 12 to 1 (there were 1,100 Syrian tanks versus 157 Israeli tanks). The first few days of the war saw Israeli counterattacks fail as Israel suffered hundreds of casualties and lost nearly 150 planes.
Because of disputes among the Israeli generals Ariel Sharon and Abraham Addan, the true situation in the Sinai was not revealed to general stuff HQ until the 4th day of fighting. The accepted assessment at that time was that no significant force stood in the way of the Egyptian and Syrian armies between their positions and the citries of Tel Aviv and Haifa in the heart of the country.
The night of the 9th-10th was to be later known as “Metsada night” because of the general feeling in HQ of imminent disaster. Hasty Plans were drawn to recruit boys of the ages of 16 and 17 and the mass evacuation of children to Italy. Only in the morning of October 10, when news arrived of the successful pushback of the Egyptian army and the halt of the Syrian armor – that relief came.

And what is the situation today?
People living in the US, seeing Israel through CNN and the media might think that people here are falling dead on the streets and everybody is depressed and suicidal. Well, let me ease your concerns. The living standard is the highest Israel has ever experienced. Everybody owns a car, a color TV and a DVD player. Many own a home cinema system, PS2 game console and a second car. I just bought a SONY digital camcorder for 1500$. Israel is still considered the second silicon valley. People here go out to restaurants, parties, the theatre, etc. The headlines of Friday morning were all about the great victory of Hapoel Tel Aviv over Milan in the UEFA Cup quarter-final on Thursday.
The vast majority in Israel, left and right, sees Israel as their only homeland and almost half the people still believe that long lasting peace in the foreseeing future is feasible.

And in regard to the suggestion to abandon the state of Israel and move to “safe haven” in the US:
People , you forget why the state of Israel was formed to begin with. America is not the Jewish homeland. It is not even a safe haven. The most certain fact you can learn from history is that it tends to repeat itself and that change is imminent. In 1924, in response to the wave of Jewish immigrants fleeing Russian pogroms, the US has posted restrictions over the maximum allowed number of immigrants to be accepted. This situation can and will repeat itself!
Anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, especially in France.
To this day, The only country in the world where Jews are granted automatic citizenship upon arrival – is Israel.

Suggesting that Israelis leave Israel is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians. Jews must never leave the land of Israel, lest we want to wait another 2000 years to return.

What we in Israel need now is the moral support of Jews of the Diaspora, using their influence over their local governments to pressure Arafat into ceasing the violence. We don’t need such "Ahitofel advices". We’ve been through worse and we can hold on until the storm is over.

Rest assured, Israeli Jews will never abandon the land of Israel, for their sake as well as your own.