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Thread: The worst danger in Israel's history

  1. #16
    ibrodsky
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    I imagine they are not to different from pictures Palestinian children are drawing right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

    You should know by now that Palestinian children are being taught to draw terrorists as heroic resistance fighters. With its paramilitary summer camps, encouraging children to throw rocks at soldiers, and brainwashing children starting in kindergarten, the PA is truly guilty of child abuse.

    As an idealist Zionist living in Israel, I must say I am shocked and appalled to read Flame and L@mplighterM's suggestions to end the conflict. If this is the kind of support the Diaspora Jews are willing to give, I pass.

    I have to agree with you on this one. It is naive to think there is no anti-semitism in the U.S. There are plenty of people who say that 9/11 was our own fault... for supporting Israel.

    First of all, there is absolutely no justification for painting the reality with such black colors. Israel is NOT facing the worst situation in its history. Far from it. Israel today is the strongest country in the region, militarily as well as economically speaking.

    This is a matter of opinion. I believe Israel is facing the worst danger since its War of Independence. I think there are some factors you aren't taking into account.

    Over the last decade we have seen the rise of militant Islam, a neo-Nzai movement with potentially tens of millions of supporters. The Oslo "Peace Process" turned the Father of Modern Terrorism, Yasir Arafat, into a "statesman," and he promptly used this sham to arm 30,000+ fighters and launch a massive propaganda campaign against Jews and Israel. He has also formed a secret alliance with Iran and has the backing of Iraq, two of only three countries identified by President Bush as the "axis of evil."

    Sorry, but at the risk of you accusing me of flaming, I have to say that telling us you bought an electronic toy is evidence of Israel's strength is pure silliness. Really, this highlights what we have said about the refusnik officers. For Israel to be divided within while militant Islam plans the annihilation of "the Zionist entity" is no laughing matter.


    Suggesting that Israelis leave Israel is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians. Jews must never leave the land of Israel, lest we want to wait another 2000 years to return.

    Agreed! Now we just need to figure out who is "is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians." Certainly suggesting Jews give up on Israel is one example.

    And imagining that the Palestinians simply want their own peaceful state on the West Bank and Gaza is another.


    What we in Israel need now is the moral support of Jews of the Diaspora, using their influence over their local governments to pressure Arafat into ceasing the violence. We don’t need such "Ahitofel advices". We’ve been through worse and we can hold on until the storm is over.

    Unfortunately, it's Israel's left that has done more to discourage the support of diaspora Jews than any other force. When we hear Jews in Israel saying that Israel is the party in the wrong, what are we supposed to conclude?

    This is why many American Jews have taken the position that Israel is not important to them.

    What you may not realize is this: what American Jews often hear is (in effect) "many Israelis believe that the problem is Israel's fault."

    Really, if you want the support of diaspora Jews you have to come to grips with what Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, et al really are, and help expose them. It's Israelis who need to be jumping up and down right now telling everyone that they are at the front line fighting Al Qaeda and its allies.

  2. #17
    Flame
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    Wrong Sharonbn... all the other wars were regular ground wars.... armies against armies... the individual acts of mob terrorists is a new twist.... and even the last war was before the arab world was taken over with this new radicalized form of islam... until 1980.... the arab world was NOT as dangerous as it is now.

    I guess you don't understand the reasons for Jews being in the Holy land... being there now, as a state, was to give the Jews a place to call their own... has nothing to do with the biblical scenairo.

    If in fact this biblical version every comes about, it doesn't matter where Jews are living before hand. As the legend goes... the "messiah" (forgot how to spell it the Jewish way)... he will restore the Holy Land, not the US, not the UN, not any big group... he, who ever he is, will be the one responcible for not just restoring Israel, but restoring our ligitmate reason to be there.... no questions asked.... and after that happens, legend says, the temple will be restored and that god himself will dwell in the temple.

    What Israel is now has nothing to do with biblical legends.

    Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews on the face of the planet... the UN is doing all it can with the help of the EU and arab world to destroy Israel and make Jews look like we are the nazis. We have all the government in the US kissing arab butt... none of this happened before.

    Why won't we just get the hell out of the arab world and use our own oil? So so simple. The oil barons won't loose a dime if they relocate to Alaska. WIthout oil... the US can say to the arab world ... you want what? Ha Ha.

  3. #18
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    sharonbn,

    "First of all, there is absolutely no justification for painting the reality with such black colors. Israel is NOT facing the worst situation in its history. Far from it. Israel today is the strongest country in the region, militarily as well as economically speaking."

    It seems like all the people I personally know who live in Israel, and all the people who follow Israel closely for years, are saying that it is, in fact, the worst time ever for the country.

    You think that every Israeli owning a VCR makes life good when they fear that their children who go out to shop in a mall might not ever come home? Or that they might be shot to death through the windshield of their car while driving home from work on any given day?

    I think you're mistaken and it really shows that even someone living in Israel can be either completely detached from the reality of the situation, or more likely simply living in complete denial. But, ultimately, if the situation is better than ever, as you claim, then I guess there is no need to bother to improve things. Is that what you're saying?



    "Some Israelis believed that Ben-Gurion was too haste to declare an Israeli state without first securing the support of world powers. After the war was over, it was found out that one third of the Israeli army was annihilated, the Israeli economy was in ruins."

    I am sorry to tell you that: a. The world voted the UN resolution that made Israel a state, because there was plenty of international support, and b. Israel had no economy at all in 1948, since it did not exist beforehand. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.




    "And what is the situation today?
    People living in the US, seeing Israel through CNN and the media might think that people here are falling dead on the streets and everybody is depressed and suicidal. "


    That's becuase Israeli citizens are being shot at bus stops, in shopping mall, on city buses, in pizza shops, in discos, in their cars, in playgrounds, in apartment buildings, in community centers, etc. This happens every day and has been going on for nearly a year now. Do you deny this? Are you aware that this day-in-day-out mass murder of Israelis was NOT the situation ever before?



    "The headlines of Friday morning were all about the great victory of Hapoel Tel Aviv over Milan in the UEFA Cup quarter-final on Thursday."

    That's right. That is a tiny bit of welcome normalcy in Israel. So, too, people's lives go on in various ways, but underlying it all is extreme fear and anxiety about the security situation.



    "Suggesting that Israelis leave Israel is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians. Jews must never leave the land of Israel, lest we want to wait another 2000 years to return."
    Very true.



    "We don’t need such "Ahitofel advices". We’ve been through worse and we can hold on until the storm is over."

    Yes, all of a sudden I see you're quoting Ariel Sharon.

    We are doing our part here in the US, but you need to not just quote Sharon when it suits you, you need to get out to the streets of Israel and let Sharon know that he can count on you to withstand the Leftists in his government that are tying the IDF's hands in dealing with the Palestinians properly once and for all.

    Despite appearances to the contrary, the world will support Israel only if Israel is strong and takes matters into its own hands for real.

  4. #19
    sharonbn
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    ibrodsky,

    You should know by now that Palestinian children are being taught to draw terrorists as heroic resistance fighters.
    You seem to know a lot about Palestinians from your residence in the USA. I can tell you two things about what I know about children in the Mideast:
    1. Palestinian children have the same feelings, emotions and fears as Israeli children. Since the beginning of the Intifada, hospitals and clinics in PA territory have reported a massive increase in cases of Post traumatic stress disorder, shock, depression, and family violence among the Palestinian population. If your life is threaten daily, you will develop phobias and depression, no matter who’s to blame for the situation - this is a human reaction . It is true that Palestinian society is a ‘recruited’ society, where everyone is acting towards one goal without expresing any criticism. But this is done “for the camera”. Israeli military actions (whether justified or not, I’m not getting into this question) have a terrifying effect over the Palestinian civilian population (children as well as adults.)

    2. The settlers in the occupied territories are making cynical use of their youth in the war against the Palestinians. I will not say they are pushing the children to the front line, but they do not take minimal precautions for the lives of the children.
    My good friend from high school is now a building engineer. One of his tasks was to overlook the building of a defensive wall around a settlement in the heart of Hebron, not far from the Kasba. The settlers rejected the erection of ANY kind of such wall since they believe they sit on the holy land, their land, and they do not need protection while living on their land. The army put two infantry companies (=200 soldiers) to protect 10 families with some 40 children. Then my friend came with the idea to erect a wall of translucent fiberglass without the knowledge of the settlers. The army agreed. The settlers did find out about this. They began protesting by throwing stones at the workers. The work is now halted.

    Sorry, but at the risk of you accusing me of flaming, I have to say that telling us you bought an electronic toy is evidence of Israel's strength is pure silliness. Really, this highlights what we have said about the refusnik officers.
    I don’t understand the relation between my possessions and the officers’ letter.
    Regarding the issue, I don’t know if you understand the concept of “living standard”. This is an economical index which attempts to rate how good or bad your socio-economical position is. The rating is based upon several factors:
    Income level, Housing level (how big is your house, how well is the neighborhood, etc.), possessions (Automobiles, electrical appliances, electronic goods, etc.), your expenditure (how much do you spend on food, cloths, entertainment, travel etc.) All these factors together make up the index called “living standard”. I was making a point that average Israeli living standard has been on the rise since the beginning of the 1980s without significant declines. Israel’s GDP growth rate was a strong 6% in 2000 (before the brake of the Intifada.) These facts are clear indication of the economical strength of Israel.
    It is true that since the brake of the Intifada, Some industries are facing big problems (especially tourism) but this is far from the worst economical situations Israel have faced in its past.

    Now we just need to figure out who is "is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians." Certainly suggesting Jews give up on Israel is one example.
    And imagining that the Palestinians simply want their own peaceful state on the West Bank and Gaza is another.

    IMO, IDF recent actions in Ramallah and the rest of PA cities, bring tremendous damage to Israel’s position and cause in international public opinion. This is exactly what Arafat (who don’t care for the suffering of his own people, as long as there diplomatic gain) is looking for.
    You have to understand that the real battlefield is not the streets of Jerusalem or Ramallah. It is international media and world public opinion. This is where the Palestinians and Israelis fight the “real” war and right now, the Palestinians are winning. This is largely because they can present themselves as stone throwers against tanks and F16s (even if this is not the reality.)

    Unfortunately, it's Israel's left that has done more to discourage the support of diaspora Jews than any other force.
    This is what you are suppose to conclude: Israel is a true democracy where the opposition to the government is making a strong stand. An opposition to ruling government is not a synonym for supporters of the enemy. The left wing of the Israeli political map is expressing concerns about violation of human rights by Israeli soldiers because it believes that not “all is fair at love and war”. We need to watch ourselves lest we become the savages we are fighting against.

    I’m proud to be able to say that Israel stand on moral higher ground than its rivals. This is not only because we fight for a just cause and for our lives (which is true, of course), but we do so without loosing human face and human feelings of compassion and empathy to the suffering of those who hate us. This is what makes Israel special an unique among all other world nations. IMO, the left wing are the keepers of morality and humanity in Israel. This is by no means lass important than winning military victories.

    When we hear Jews in Israel saying that Israel is the party in the wrong, what are we supposed to conclude? [...]
    What you may not realize is this: what American Jews often hear is (in effect) "many Israelis believe that the problem is Israel's fault."

    If this is what you hear, you need to check your ears. Israelis do not blame Israel for the eruption of violence. Israelis do express criticism over some of the reactions of the Israeli army and Israeli government to the terror attacks. This does not undermine the legitimacy of the ruling government. But it is essential that the government and the army understand that they cannot do whatever they like and act with brute force against civilian population just because the other side does the same!
    Last edited by sharonbn; 03-17-2002 at 12:02 PM.

  5. #20
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Following the Leftist money trail

    Just came across this in the Israeli newspaper Maariv:

    It seems that the Leftist movement of army sabateurs was not exactly an independent grass-roots movement, as many Leftists have claimed so far. They were actually receiving guidince and financing from a cunning Arafat supporter.

    The story came to light when the Mayor of an Israeli town called Or Akiva, filed a complaint with Israel's police force naming a little-known Professor, Danny Gur, as being involved in "incitement to murder," which is a crime under Israeli law.

    It turns out that the Professor, an extremist Leftist, published a full-page ad in Ha'aretz calling for Arafat to continue terrorism against Israeli civilians.

    The Professor then admitted that he is has been financing the Leftist military sabateurs who have been undermining the IDF.

    And so we see the collaboration among the extremist Leftist money machine, army sabateurs and the Leftist press to harm the security of the people of Israel.

    I look forward to the outcome of the investigation, but am glad, in any event, that the source of financing the Leftist army sabateurs has now been exposed.

  6. #21
    cerulean
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    How much money is involved here? And how does the professor have enough money to do this?

  7. #22
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by cerulean
    How much money is involved here? And how does the professor have enough money to do this?
    There were no specific figures quoted in Maariv. But like I wrote previously in this thread, the organizing, promoting and staffing of the Leftist demonstration, plus producing and running a full-page ad in a national paper costs a good deal of money.

    Certainly the Professor has been spending 10's of thousands of dollars per month to dmage his fellow citizens.

    The Professor is a surgeon, apparently successful enough to finance political action, and perhaps we will still find out about other sources of the funds in addition than his personal wealth. I would not be surprised if other sources of financing are announced soon enough.

    So far, today the IDF said that it the ad helped legitimize terrorist attacks such as those committed just today against innocent Israeli citizens.

  8. #23
    sharonbn
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    Flame,
    all the other wars were regular ground wars.... armies against armies... the individual acts of mob terrorists is a new twist....
    Israel has always been the victim of terrorist attacks, since its creation. From the Egyptian “Fedaiun” attacks on the Negev settlements in the 50s, to PLO attacks from Jordan in the 60s (incl. a famous attack on a bus traveling in the dead sea in1964, killing 24 people), to PLO attacks from Lebanon in the 70s (incl. a famous attack on a school in the northern town Ma’alot in 1974, killing 14 children.) to recent terrorist activities from the Gaza strip and the west bank.

    I guess you don't understand the reasons for Jews being in the Holy land... being there now, as a state, was to give the Jews a place to call their own... has nothing to do with the biblical scenario.
    Did I mention the bible?? I went back to my post #15 and didn’t find any biblical scenario. I said the creation of the state of Israel was possible after WWII when the world nations realized that Jews need a safe haven of their own.

    Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews on the face of the planet..
    I wholeheartedly disagree with you. The fact that there is currently an eruption of violence in Israel does not mean the situation will last forever. I don’t understand you, when things become rough and you need to fight for your life and beliefs – you run away?!? If people were like you we didn’t have the French revolution, American independence, Algerian independence (from France whose actions in Algeria in the 50s can only be described as brutal savagery), and Vietnamese independence. I choose to fight. Up until now, Israel has won all its wars against the Arab – regular ones as well as wars against terrorism. I feel confident in the strength of Israel especially since justice is on our side. If you believe in what you’re fighting for – you will win.

    Why won't we just get the hell out of the arab world and use our own oil? So so simple.
    Our oil? Whose oil are you speaking about? Israeli oil? American oil? American oil is American oil – not Israeli or Jewish oil. In any case, Israel is surrounded with Arab states, but Israel is not, and was never, part of the Arab world.

  9. #24
    L@mplighterM
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    The use of anti anxiety drugs has increased by 20% in Israel that in it self says something. I don’t think it’s a good situation when people don’t know whether their loved ones may or may not become victims of terrorism.

    Materialism is not going to improve anyone’s anxiety level. So if you have 7 computers, 3 DVD players, 3 cars, 2 houses etc. it has no bearing on anything,

    You talk about 1948 and 1973 well that was then and the present is 2002.

    If Islamic countries launched an all out attack on Israel in the future things might be different. Weapons have changed dramatically and they will continue to do so. I don’t want to paint any doomsday scenario but Israel needs as much support as it can get from the west.

    In 1967 and 1973 it was not Israeli technology that won the battles it was technology acquired from the US.

    Information regarding the 50 tons of weapons seems to have come from the CIA. I cannot imagine what the scenario would be like now if the PA had gotten hold of the weapons. Is this the last attempt of the PA to acquire weapons? I don’t think so!

    Tradition doesn’t amount too much when you’re six feet under does it?

    There’s only one way for Israel to survive and that is to build strong alliances. Sure Israel is a nuclear ready country but eventually that technology will available to everyone. United States helped Israel by knocking Iraq down a peg or two. Iraq had the fifth largest military in 1991 and if it would have been left unattended who knows where it would have been today. Further if Israel hadn’t destroyed Iraq’s reactor in 1981 who knows what strength that country would have had in 1991. Would it have become the second largest military power in the world? Who knows????

    As it stands right now (aside from the sibling rivalry) it seems that the US is Israel’s strongest ally and protector. Should the States be doing more? I think so but then there’s that dirty little word OIL that prevents the US from supporting Israel 100%.

  10. #25
    sharonbn
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    NewsGuy,

    It seems like all the people I personally know who live in Israel, and all the people who follow Israel closely for years, are saying that it is, in fact, the worst time ever for the country.
    As someone whose been living in Israel for 34 years, who knows Israel and Israelis better than you – let me inform you: All Israelis agree that these are hard times indeed. however, many of us acknowledge that they are not the worst in our history. We faced worse situations and came out of them stronger than ever. Many Israelis still believe that peace with the Palestinians is a feasible option.

    I think you're mistaken and it really shows that even someone living in Israel can be either completely detached from the reality of the situation, or more likely simply living in complete denial.
    The people I mentioned above are not detached or in denial. Please Please stop telling me how the people I live among are feeling and what is the moral situation in Israel.

    But, ultimately, if the situation is better than ever, as you claim, then I guess there is no need to bother to improve things. Is that what you're saying?
    Oh really, coem on!
    Of course there are lots of things that need urgent improvement, in the security and economic fields. But again, there is not need to look at reality with complete pessimistic glasses.

    a. The world voted the UN resolution that made Israel a state, because there was plenty of international support,
    b. Israel had no economy at all in 1948, since it did not exist beforehand. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.

    a. The vote in the UN, unfortunately, did not translate into support in the form on military equipment and health aid. Moreover, the US (United States of America, Israel's friend) posed a complete embargo of military purchase on all the region in the belief that this will stop the imminent war. Most western Europe followed this. This decision had little affect on the already-equiped Arab armies, but a devastating affect on the Israeli new army. Israel had to buy guns, ammunition and WWII surplus airplanes from the Czech republic.
    b. This is totally ridicules. Not only Israel had an economy at this time with 2 major banks (Hapoalim and Barkliss) and a stock market, ALL of the state institutions, including a governing committee, parliament with political parties and elections, Worker unions, court houses, police and health care – all of these were existing and working before the declaration of Israel.

    Do you deny this? Are you aware that this day-in-day-out mass murder of Israelis was NOT the situation ever before?
    Of course this is true. Israelis are under daily attacks and of course this greatly affects the feelings and actions of the people. I never denied this. I myself passed the Moment café just half an hour before the bomb blast (my brother lives near by) and was shocked to hear about the bomb. When I say this is not the worst situation Israel has faced, I don’t mean the situation is good. But again and again I will say as someone who is living in Israel for a long time and knows how it was here before – these are bad times. Worse then the beginning of the violence 18 months ago, but Israel is not facing existential danger (as it has in the past.)

    PS,
    “Ahitofel advice” is a well known Hebrew coin phrase. No one, including Ariel Sharon holds exclusive right to it.

  11. #26
    sharonbn
    Guest
    I just went to Maariv site and read the article regarding Danny Gur. I must say I am in complete shock and horror...

    I do have the Haaretz paper from the weekend but I didn't go over all of it and didn't see the ad in question. I will search for it and post it here for you to look at.

    If what Yaakov Edri (mayor of Or Akiva) claims is true, than Danny Gur's actions are very serious and dangarious. He desrves to go on trial for this.

    If an Israeli citizen (even an Arab Israeli) supports Palestinian terrorist actions - this poses a real threat to Israel and should be dealt with full power.

    I must state here clearly: ALL israelis, left and right, acknowlege that we are at war with the Palestinians and Arafat their leader. Arafat is the enemy of the Israeli state. I do not support the killing of Arafat but this is purely for practical reasons (I don't believe that killing him will end the violence.) If there was some magical way to kill Arafat and his supportersand get away with it, I would not hesitate.

    It was also mentioned that Danny Gur confessed that he was the funding force behind the pulication of the offcers' letter. This greatly damages their cause. I feel I cannot support this movement anymore. They have placed themselves outside Israeli legitimate opposition. They deserve the title NewsGuy gave them: sabateurs.

  12. #27
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Sharonbn,

    I commend you for drawing the right conclusions regarding the Danny Gur affair.

    I am sure that as far as defending Israel from annihilation we are all on the same side here.

    I think what you are missing in what Newsguy and others are saying about this being the worst danger is this: the measure of danger is not merely based on the number of people killed. It's based on a number of factors:

    1. Hezbolah possessing thousands of rockets capable of reaching Northern Israel.
    2. Saddam Hussein possessing scud missiles which he has proved he is willing to fire at Israel.
    3. Israel is formally at "peace" with Egypt, yet Egypt incites violence against Israel and has even talked of a new war.
    4. Almost the entire Islamic world has been whipped into an anti-Israel frenzy. One must wonder how it could be that Iran, hardly a next door neighbor, always has Israel at the top or near the top of its complaint list.
    5. Europe has never been an enthusiastic supporter of Israel, but when a French ambassador calls Israel "That ty little country" and gets away with it it should tell you something. Anti-semitism in Europe is very much on the rise.
    6. A UN conference against racism turns into a Jew- and Israel-bashing festival.
    7. Even the US acts as if Israel has no real right to defend herself.
    8. The biggest threat against Israel isn't conventional armies, which Israel is good at defeating, but terrorist infiltrators who are almost impossible to stop. The Islamists are willing to die to kill Israelis, and they have proved they are willing to do it for decades if that's how long it takes for them to achieve their evil goals.
    9. We visit Israel and talk to others who visit Israel, and the word is that things are not good. Ten years ago, the feeling was that terrorist attacks are terrible but Israel is the region's superpower. Starting with 9/11, we have seen we are facing an enemy that has found ways to get around the usual "superpower" defense mechanisms.
    10. As demoralizing as it is to listen to extreme left-wing criticism of Israel, try listening to militant Islam. These people have made destroying Israel their main goal in life. There are potentially tens of millions of these people. Look what they did to Daniel Pearl. Their eveil knows no bounds, and right now it's not clear there is a single leader in the world who is fully aware and prepared to fight this neo-Nazi movement.

    To wit, militant Islam is in mad pursuit of an "Islamic atomic bomb" and I think they would wipe out Tel Aviv and even endanger the Palestinians if that's what it takes to destroy Israel. Sort of a "If we can't have it no one can have it" mentality.

    I can only say in conclusion that things are much worse than you imagine.

  13. #28
    ibrodsky
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    You seem to know a lot about Palestinians from your residence in the USA. I can tell you two things about what I know about children in the Mideast:
    1. Palestinian children have the same feelings, emotions and fears as Israeli children.


    What, only people living in Israel can understand the Palestinians? I have had many dealings with Palestinians during my life. I've been to the West Bank. I've studied the region's history.

    Sure, there are Palestinian children with the same emotions as Israeli children. But there is an active effort to teach that such fears are cowardly, that Palestinian children should prepare themselves for martyrdom.

    Perhaps you underestimate the impact of religion and culture on children.

    2. The settlers in the occupied territories are making cynical use of their youth in the war against the Palestinians. I will not say they are pushing the children to the front line, but they do not take minimal precautions for the lives of the children.

    Even if true as you describe, it is nothing like the way that the PA uses its children. Refusing a fence is hardly equivalent to sacrificng your life to kill Jews.

    I don’t understand the relation between my possessions and the officers’ letter.

    The point was that economic standard of living does not guarantee survival. The issue is which side has the will to persevere. Even if Israel's economy is the best ever, it means nothing if the PA and its Islamist allies succeed in overrunning the country.


    IMO, IDF recent actions in Ramallah and the rest of PA cities, bring tremendous damage to Israel’s position and cause in international public opinion. This is exactly what Arafat (who don’t care for the suffering of his own people, as long as there diplomatic gain) is looking for.

    You have to understand that the real battlefield is not the streets of Jerusalem or Ramallah. It is international media and world public opinion.


    Here is perhaps the crux of our disagreement. The real battlefield is indeed Ramallah and Jerusalem, not the int'l media. If it was the int'l media, Israel lost a long time ago! But what really matters is not what outsiders say but who lives and who dies. Or in preparation for that, who has the momentum to carry them through to military victory. I am saying the PA has the momentum and the kind of material support needed to win. No one anywhere is supporting Israel in fighting the terrorists.

    This is what you are suppose to conclude: Israel is a true democracy where the opposition to the government is making a strong stand. An opposition to ruling government is not a synonym for supporters of the enemy. The left wing of the Israeli political map is expressing concerns about violation of human rights by Israeli soldiers because it believes that not “all is fair at love and war”. We need to watch ourselves lest we become the savages we are fighting against.

    This is all very noble. But you also have to watch to make sure the savages don't just take over. If you think that's not possible, and that Israel is so strong you and they can oppose the IDF, then you are mistaken. Israel is a tiny country, greatly outnumbered, and doesn't have the luxury of being both more noble and winning the war. The other side's evil knows no bounds; they are counting on Israel's morality to handcuff Israel from doing what is needed to win.

    I’m proud to be able to say that Israel stand on moral higher ground than its rivals. This is not only because we fight for a just cause and for our lives (which is true, of course), but we do so without loosing human face and human feelings of compassion and apathy to the suffering of those who hate us. This is what makes Israel special an unique among all other world nations. IMO, the left wing are the keepers of morality and humanity in Israel. This is by no means lass important than winning military victories.

    Again, noble sentiments, but of little good if they actually prevent Israel from winning.

    If this is what you hear, you need to check your ears. Israelis do not blame Israel for the eruption of violence. Israelis do express criticism over some of the reactions of the Israeli army and Israeli government to the terror attacks. This does not undermine the legitimacy of the ruling government. But it is essential that the government and the army understand that they cannot do whatever they like and act with brute force against civilian population just because the other side does the same!

    Nonsense. The picture presented to the outside world is that Israel is engaged in an "illegal occupation," and that Israel kicked Palestinians off their land. It isn't a question of whether my ears work properly.

    Now, if even Israelis say Israel is in the wrong, then this gives Israel's opponents abroad tremendous ammunition. If I say, here in the US, that Israel is just defending itself from forces trying to destroy Israel, what I am told is that Israel is occupying other's land and that Israel's actions have driven Arabs -- out of desperation -- into being terrorists. If I argue with that I am stopped dead in my tracks: "Why even Israeli combat officers say this is the real situation."

  14. #29
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    There were two more attacks today in Israel and there’s no doubt in my mind that the terrorist actions will continue. Whilst this may not be the worst time in the history of the country it sure seems bad enough.

    When will it end? I think everyone knows the answer.

    Russia gave Iran the parts to build a nuclear reactor a few months ago. The 50 tons of weapons came from Iran. In a few years Iran will have enriched nuclear materials enabling them to build a nuclear bombs.

    I think it’s just a matter of time before a small nuclear device is detonated (frightening thought) in Israel. Will it be bad enough then?

    Is Israel going to give up Jerusalem? I don’t think so.

    I would not like being the hunted and then if I decided to do something about it get chastised by the rest of the world. That’s exactly what is happening in Israel today.
    Last edited by L@mplighterM; 03-17-2002 at 03:28 PM.

  15. #30
    sharonbn
    Guest

    The ad by Danny Gur

    This is the ad I found on the front page of Haaretz newspaper from last weekend (15/3/02). I will try to write it as faithful to the original as I can.
    I would like first to clearly state that I do not support the opinion expressed in the ad. I’m bringing it here for you to read and judge for yourselves if this ad indeed instigate to murder Israelis, as the police file states.

    The title is “HEART OF STONE”

    Sharon’s peace and security plan destines as living area for the Palestinians some 10% of the “Mandate” land of Israel [Israel under British rule, sharonbn], without territorial continuum. They will be surrounded by blocks of settlers. In order to force the Palestinians to accept this doomsday plan, Sharon is leading a policy of massacre, hoping that the Palestinians will collapse and sign the surrender declaration, which is the peace and security agreement. In order to gain legitimacy for this massacre, Sharon needs terrorist attacks on us, Israeli citizens. For example: the order to assassinate Daqidaq, Sharon gave few hours after Arafat declared cease fire on 16/12/01. The murder of Daqidaq cancelled the cease fire and brought on a significant escalation in the number of Israeli casualties. Sharon gave the order to assassinate Ra’id Carmi after a five-days cease fire held by Arafat – this was probably much more than what Sharon wanted. As a result of this murder, a big escalation of the attacks against Israel occurred again. As a result of sabotaging these cease fires, Sharon deliberately caused the number of Israeli casualties to sky-rocket. If, for instance, Sharon had releaseed Arafat after the arrest of the first three murderers of Rehava’am Ze’evi, then again, dozens of Israeli mortalities would be spared. In general, The apathy of Sharon to the issue of terror victims is the result of a heart made of stone. He has no time, according to his saying, to console the families who suffered his cruel policy. What kind of a heart has a man who bombs civilian population with airplanes.

    Although in all the incidents depicted here, it was Sharon who caused the end of the cease fire, it was nevertheless Sharon who cast the blame on Arafat, whom he calls a liar. Indeed, after Barak foolishly shattered the credibility of Arafat, the Israeli public believes the accusations against him. This is a big mistake. Arafat clearly understands that Sharon is leading him and his people towards a massacre and that without Israeli casualties this cannot be achieved. but as far as revenge actions are concerned, Arafat cannot stop them. It is true that Arafat is using lies, but what other weapon has he got against the military might of Israel. Lying is also the only surviving trick he has available for him in the complex Arab world. You need to understand that like Menahem Begin, leader of the national military organization (Ha’etzel) who stopped terror against the British only after an agreement to end occupation was reached – so must Arafat continue the terror attacks until the problem of Israeli occupation will find its solution. This is since any cease fire initiated by Arafat means giving legitimacy to the settlements. And still, twice before, he did cease the attacks: during Rabin’s last days and during some of Netanyahu’s time. He then believed their intentions are pure. If Arafat dies, there is no one to succeed him and then there can be no peace for the foreseeable future. Not every day a man like Arafat is born, who for 40 years succeeded in surviving all the while gathering a new nation, the Palestinian nation. There is also no one in the Arab world with his statue and authority that can close a deal with the Jews.

    The only chance that exists today to reach a peace agreement in our time depends solely upon Arafat surviving longer than Sharon. Therefore, the lying PM needs to be expelled from office immediately. Thus, the time has come to go out once again to the streets. We did it after Yom Kippur war, after Lebanon war, after Peres’ “dirty trick” and “Four Mothers” movement did it as well, all with success.

    [on the bottom it reads:]
    This ad is my initiative and was funded from my own pocket.

    PS
    As I was writing this, a question crept to my mind, should Haaretz agree to post this ad? on its front page? Should Haaretz censor itself, or allow this in he name of free speech?
    I really don't know...

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