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Thread: The worst danger in Israel's history

  1. #31
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    sharonbn,

    "As someone whose been living in Israel for 34 years, who knows Israel and Israelis better than you – let me inform you: All Israelis agree that these are hard times indeed. however, many of us acknowledge that they are not the worst in our history."

    You know, one of the interesting things about having a diologue with people over the Internet anonymously is that you have no idea who you're talking to. I doubt that you know Israel and Israelis better than I do, but I will not belabor the point. If you do, then great, please educate me and the other readers.

    Anyway, please tell me when, in your view, during the past 34 years Israel was in a worse situation. You pointed out the Yom Kippur war. Fine. I remember it well as a kid running out of temple to go sit in a bomb shelter in a suburb of Tel Aviv. I remember the fright, listening to a transistor radio in our building's miklat and hearing the news that the Syrians took over Mt. Hermon, while the Egyptians were sending missiles over my town, trying to hit nearby Tel Aviv. I remember well going to many shiva calls in my neighborhood after the war. It was a very sad war and many lost, but it was over in a matter of about a week.

    And then came the Maalot massacre and the Savoy Hotel terrorist situation and I myself nearly died in a terrorist bombing in a central bus station in the town of Afula, but instead just being knocked down to the ground from the force of the explosion.

    But I had recently recalled a dear friend of my family, an American who like us moved to Israel, who lost an arm in the Yom Kippur War. Just a few weeks ago, he was shot by a Palestinian terrorist while driving on a road connecting Jerusalem with his town. I heard his remaining hand was hit -- a tough break for someone who is a writer...

    Anyway, there was never a time with daily mass murders like today, even in the worst times in the Lebanon War, when casualties were reported regularly.

    This is a new and terrible situation and it requires different measures than ever before.

    I'm not saying that Israelis stopped living their lives, but no one I know is the same these days. Maybe things are different in your neighborhood than in the rest of the country. I hope so.



    "But again, there is not need to look at reality with complete pessimistic glasses."

    That's right. But then again, there's no need to walk quietly like sheep to the slaughter.



    "Israel had to buy guns, ammunition and WWII surplus airplanes from the Czech republic."

    Sorry to say this, but if the US needs for Israel to do certain things so as not to offend the US coalition for the next war on Iraq, and Israel refuses, then Israel will find itself again without a fresh supply of US weapons and spare parts.

    Look, clearly Israel has come a long way since before even being an independent state, but more than ever, it is subject to going along with the commands of other states who may not share the same interests as Israel.

    With all the high "standard of living" that you write about, Israel operates at a huge foreign trade deficit, with an unemployment rate that some say is as high as 25%, and has never been able to stand on her own two feet economically.

    So now there are some very real existential consequences, among them doing what the US says, or the foreign aid party will be over.



    "Worse then the beginning of the violence 18 months ago, but Israel is not facing existential danger (as it has in the past.)"

    Many would argue that the establishment of an enemy Palestinian state with no requirements for being a democracy, no enforecable limitations on its manufacturing of weapons, no mechanism in place to guarantee huge punishment in the event of further terrorism, and no requirement to stop teaching anti-Semitism and incitement to mass murder Jews is an existential danger facing Israel.


    “Ahitofel advice” is a well known Hebrew coin phrase. No one, including Ariel Sharon holds exclusive right to it."

    Right, it has biblical meaning.

  2. #32
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Re: The ad by Danny Gur

    Originally posted by sharonbn
    This is the ad I found on the front page of Haaretz newspaper from last weekend (15/3/02). I will try to write it as faithful to the original as I can.
    Very well done, sharonb.

    Thank you for taking the time and putting in all the effort to translate this extensive ad. So far as I know, it's the only English translation of the famous ad.

    As for the actual content, it is full of extremist Leftist lies and baseless accusations.

    Just very briefly, there was never time in the past 2 years that Arab terrorism against innocent Israelis stopped for even 48 hours. The assasinations of the terrorists mentioned were done when it was found out that they were in the midst of planning new terror attacks in the immediate future.

    As for the accusation that Sharon "needed" terrorist attacks on Jewish citizens and that he used war planes to target Palestinian civilians, these are outright malicious lies by Gur, and far exceed any protections of free speech in any democratic society. I very much hope that Elyakim Rubinstein (Israel's AG) will initiate suit against Gur and Haaretz for libel.

    Anyway, as to the issue of whether Gur (and Haaretz) should be found guilty of incitement to murder, the answer is clearly yes.

    He urges Arafat to continue terror attacks, i.e., the mass murder of Israeli civilians, until such time as Arafat achieves all of his political objectives.

    In Gur's words: "...so must Arafat continue the terror attacks until the problem of Israeli occupation will find its solution."

    The comparison with Menachem Begin is just a smoke screen to cover up a monsterous incitement to murder Israelis.

    I am sure that Arafat wil listen carefully and oblige Mr. Gur, who can be proud already that he is at least partially and directly a massacre of innocent Israelis.

    I will also be waiting for the leader of the Leftist parties to make their own statements about this incident. Let's see them publicly dissociate themselves from Gur.

    As for Haaretz, they should really be ashamed of themselves. They published and distributed literature calling for mass murder of innocent Israeli civilians and should be punished for it.

    I can tell you that if a similar ad was offered to the New York Times, where Bush was being accused of intentionally targeting Afghani civilians and saying that the 9-11 attacks were the fault of the US, it would never be published.

    Added:

    And certainly, if anyone called for continuing terrorist attacks against Americas until the US pulled its troops out of Saudi Arabia, then you can imagine what the reaction from the public would be. No way that the NY Times (or any other national paper) would print such an ad.

    Only in Israel...

  3. #33
    cerulean
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    I definitely appreciated sharonbn's translation. Thank you for your efforts.

    NewsGuy, I was also very interested to hear your personal experiences.

  4. #34
    L@mplighterM
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    If that ad was placed in a Israeli newspaper then the editor should be arrested and charged with causing incitement.

    Arafat is a liar and a terrorist ……………period

  5. #35
    Flame
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    I really don't get this sort of thinking. I wonder if there were Jews who freely supported hitler ideas? (Not talking about the trators who were in it for money.)

  6. #36
    L@mplighterM
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    I was sponsoring someone from Israel and he was working for me when the Yom Kippur war broke out. It was Haste la vista and away he went he had already lost part of a foot. He never returned to work for me again now he’s living in NY.

    In any case I talk to quite a few Jews that have family and friends there. They are a frightened people and the economic climate isn’t the greatest. I couldn’t imagine living with the constant fear of my family being injured or killed in a terrorist attack.

    These are not good times for Israel and I suspect that it’ll get a lot worse. I know for a fact that if anyone ever did anything to my family there would only be vengeance in my mind and I couldn’t care less about the US, EU or the Israeli governments. The score would be evened or at least I would die trying to get even. Perhaps guerilla warfare is the only thing that would make the situation better in Israel the government doesn’t seem to be capable. I think it would certainly level the playing field in other words fire against fire with no rules but I would hate to see that .

    One thing for certain is that I wouldn’t want to see the annihilation of all the Israeli citizens.

    The current scenario could be likened to Nazi Germany because the goals of the Islamic States is the complete and total elimination of Israel and its people.

  7. #37
    Flame
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    Yes L@mplighterM... the Jews living in Israel are the most courageous people on the planet. Not only would I have been long gone... I've never stepped foot in Israel precisely for reasons of fear.

    I couldn't imagine what it would be like to live surrounded by such a bloodthirsty violent maniacal population. I would snap... I"m surprised how few people do. But I am also surprised how many Jews side with the arabs who want them dead.

  8. #38
    L@mplighterM
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    But I am also surprised how many Jews side with the arabs who want them dead.

    To tell you the truth I haven't met any Jews that have any great love for Muslims. I know they exist. On a forum anyone can pose as a Jew it's the new frontier u can be what u wanna be.

    Perhaps the Jews living in Israel suffer from the Stockholm syndrome I don't really know. I know that there were Jews in Europe that didn't want to rock the boat. They figured if they had a low profile then the Nazis would leave them alone.

    I can sort of imagine feeling like that and I don't know what I would have done then. The thing is that there really is no reason to think that Arafat will ever love them because he has blatantly called for terrorist attacks against Jews. Today there's instant replay so it dosen't become a matter of he said that and then another person arguing that he didn't.

    HE DID AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO !!!!!!!

    The Americans should hook that son of a bitch up to a polygraph machine and then have a talk to him. Trouble is that machines don't work with phycopaths.

    One way to spot a Muslim or a Muslim sympatizer on chats or forums that I've noticed is that they always start off so sweetly and then add a but. After the but it's always downhill and anti-semetic.

  9. #39
    watcher
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    Originally posted by Flame
    So expressing what's in your heart and deeply felt concerns is flaming?????? Flaming is basically attacking a poster personally or going on insane tirates. Expressing my opinions is not flaming.

    Anyhow... this is what I think is the only solution. Every single Jew in Israel needs to relocate to the US. This is the safest place on the planet for us.

    Get out, the arabs have nothing more to say. No occupation, no human rights abuse... zip zero. Get the hell out of Israel and come to America, making the Jewish community stronger. The arab world has the us by the balls and once again, the world is going after us. They weren't happy to just get rid of Jews in Europe, send survivors packing... no... can't be happy just to allow Jews to exist within their own little slice of the planet.

    Israel come to America!!!!!!! It's not worth total anniliation.
    Only the land of Israel is for Israel! No other land but Israel! The only total annihilation will be of those who fight against Israel! All these Centuries, Millenniums, Ages of those who fought against Israel... Israel still stands! Israel will always stand.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    "I couldn't imagine what it would be like to live surrounded by such a bloodthirsty violent maniacal population. "


    Come to North Carolina, we'll larn y'all up real good.

  11. #41
    peterkin101
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    A threat from outside is relativly easy to defend, a combined threat with either a minority of influential people inside or a series of acts by members of it's own military (such as refusal to participate in 'Track and Kill' operations) which are nothing short of TREASON makes an external threat nigh on impossible to stop. The Islamic entity can rage all it likes against Israel but won't succeed UNLESS the population gives themselves over to immorality (not just sexual but general law-breaking) and compromise.

    I would say to those idiots who think they can bargain with Islam is check out all the suicide bombing, terrorist massacres that Israel has suffered. And these have always occured when Israel has gone soft.

    Oh and finally, it may be possible on some sick and depraved website to view what happens when an 'enemy' falls into their hands-such as Wiiliam Francis Buckley, the CIA Station Chief in Beirut who had the severe misfortune to be kidnapped by Hezbollah back in 1984 c/w incriminating evidence. He was tortured to death and Hezbollah videotaped this poor man being pumped full of hallucinogeic drugs, beaten, starved and then having a tube with a balloon rammed down his throat and then having the balloon inflated to crush his internal organs to cause absolutly indescribable agony.

    THAT FATE AWAITS ANY ISRAELI MILITARY/INTELLIGENCE PERSON WHOM THEY WANT INFORMATION FROM

    And these are the sort of people the Israeli Left etc WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH!!!

    Israel suffered enslavement in the past for compromise with it's enemies and those enemies are more prevalent now than ever before.
    Last edited by peterkin101; 08-20-2008 at 01:55 AM. Reason: slight addition

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