Why I No Longer Hate Israel

[Reffo]

The option I was talking about (the "war" option) is if peace is never achieved, following your assertion that the Palis will never accept any Israeli offer

I did not say that they will never accept Israel's offer. I said that the current Pali leadership, Hamas AND the PA, don't accept Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Given time and given enough defeats, there will be new Pali leaders and their people will despair and lose faith in their ability to destroy Israel. That's when they will look for better alternatives which is peace with face saving compromises. It may be a long way away though unfortunately but Israelis should not be the ones to lose faith.

[Reffo]

so, perhaps in 10 years time more leftist ideas will be adopted by mainstream Israeli public opinion ...

Hey I am not against any ideas that would result in sustainable and REAL peace, no matter where the ideas come from. But would you say that 'your' leftist ideas brought peace to Israel? Personally I would not. Moreover if some of the more extreme leftist ideas would be implemented, at least at present, they would endanger Israel's existence but even if not it's existence, then the lives of Jewish Israelis. How do I know? Because I just look back at very recent history. Don't you remember what happened after Barak's concessions? The second Intifada happened and 4 years of deadly suicide bombing campaign.

So what am I saying? I am saying that timing is important. I am saying that it is important to consider who Israel is dealing with before offering far reaching concessions. They may be ok to do so to the likes of Sadat but not to the likes of Arafat. And last but not least, it is important to insist on reciprocity. In other words the Palestinians MUST be made to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people and drop unreasonable demands like "the right of retirn". Otherwise it's a signal that they don't yet really want peace.

[sharonbn]

I did not say that they will never accept Israel's offer. I said that the current Pali leadership, Hamas AND the PA, don't accept Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Given time and given enough defeats, there will be new Pali leaders and their people will despair and lose faith in their ability to destroy Israel. That's when they will look for better alternatives which is peace with face saving compromises. It may be a long way away though unfortunately but Israelis should not be the ones to lose faith.

I don't see any indication for what you say.
So far, Palestinian leadership only got more radical (Hamas did not come to power until the 2006 elections)
the first intifada was characterized by stone throwing. the second was by suicide bombing. now there are those who call for a third intifada - what will it be characterized with? probably something worse...
as I have demonstrated, Israeli public opinion has shifted to the left over time, while Palestinains didn't budge.
this is typical with conflict between a western foreign power and non-western indigenous population (for example, Vietnam, Algeria etc)

yes, i know Turkey holds Kurdistan for a long time so does Spain over the basque region. that is why I said - a western foreign power and non-western indigenous population. if both sides are western - you can expect "common" (i.e. western) sense from both sides. if both sides are non-western - the foreign occupation, along with its oppressive side effects can continue for a long long time. but a western power can almost never hold control against a determined non-western population. the civilian public opinion of the western power does not tolerate the side effects (human rights violation) of the occupation.

[sharonbn]

Hey I am not against any ideas that would result in sustainable and REAL peace, no matter where the ideas come from. But would you say that 'your' leftist ideas brought peace to Israel? Personally I would not. Moreover if some of the more extreme leftist ideas would be implemented, at least at present, they would endanger Israel's existence but even if not it's existence, then the lives of Jewish Israelis. How do I know? Because I just look back at very recent history. Don't you remember what happened after Barak's concessions? The second Intifada happened and 4 years of deadly suicide bombing campaign.

So what am I saying? I am saying that timing is important. I am saying that it is important to consider who Israel is dealing with before offering far reaching concessions. They may be ok to do so to the likes of Sadat but not to the likes of Arafat. And last but not least, it is important to insist on reciprocity. In other words the Palestinians MUST be made to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people and drop unreasonable demands like "the right of retirn". Otherwise it's a signal that they don't yet really want peace.

like I said: the rightist alternative of transfer or bi-national state are the worse options.
so in fact, we are arguing over the correct way to implement the leftist idea of two states.
and like I said, we need to convince the world that its pressure worked and we "got the idea" of the right solution.
the world (perhaps unlike the Palis) will release its pressure over Israel once it declares it is willing to do the concessions it is required to do.
we need to say to the world - now its time to apply the pressure over the Palis so they will see the light as well.

[Aliyah1995]

Sharon and Reffo, FWIW, I think you both mean well and there is no question all three of us care about Israel (and I would add the fate of the Jewish people as a whole). I think the closest arrangement that all Zionists (i.e. those who care about Jews maintaining sovereignty in Eretz Yisrael in some size, shape, and form) could live with (even those, like myself, not being 100% thrilled about it and having our fears and worries) is what every mainstream party (yes, even Lieberman of Yisrael Beitenu) is moving towards - two state solution, based on the '67 lines, with land swaps and Israel holding on to the bulk of Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria. Whether the far-left and the far-right like it or not (again, I am hardly doing cartwheels over it myself), that is what we are headed towards. The question is when.

PS, we have no small number of issues to fix within our own country (even when forgetting the Arab/Israel conflict) that need no less work and having peace with our neighbors will not help if we don't have peace amongst ourselves.

[Reffo]

So far, Palestinian leadership only got more radical (Hamas did not come to power until the 2006 elections)

Yes and your example just strengthened my argument. My argument is not to make concessions to the wrong Pali leaders and not to make concessions without expecting reciprocal concessions.

Your example proves my point. Hamas came to power after Israel made a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. The message that the Palestinian people got from that is that Hamas's tactics and intransigence paid off. That is precisely the message that they got from Barak's 2000/2001 concessions. After the 2000 offer, the second intofada broke out. Then that messaage got further reinforced in 2001 after Taba where they got even further concessions in response to their violence.

sharonbn, it's not rocket science. If people get rewarded for a certain behaviour then they will continue with that behaviour.

By the way, you are making a mistake when you compare Israel's situation to the experience that other Western powers had in places like Algeria and other colonies where the native populations defeated them. Unlike Israel, the Western powers had a choice. When things became real tough, all they had to do is to go back to their own countries and live the good life. But what choice does Israel/Israelis have? If they continue to just give up, where would they withdraw to? Back to their places of exile where they were persecuted for 2000 years? You know very well that they have no such options. That's why Israel has no other choice but to remain tough till they get what they want, REAL PEACE, not illusionary peace.

[Reffo]

PS, we have no small number of issues to fix within our own country (even when forgetting the Arab/Israel conflict) that need no less work and having peace with our neighbors will not help if we don't have peace amongst ourselves

I totally agree.

[sharonbn]

Reffo,

I was writing a long rebuttal to your point, with examples etc. and then I realized that actually I agree with you.
I do believe that Arabs respect a strong opponent who can defend itself and knows how to strike back at provocations. They will also scorn a 'Chamberlain' defeatist.
So I agree that doing concessions without getting anything in return is useless and even harmful.

However, I still believe that what Israel needs to do now on a formal level (as opposed to the practical one) is to declare its vision of the final resolution of the conflict. I disagree with your assessment that such a declaration will become the starting point of negotiating for more concessions. This was perhaps true when the process started some 20 years ago. However, today, like Aliyah wisely said, everyone knows what is the price that we can live with and what we cannot, so its not a big secret. There is benefit in openly declaring the obvious - for the world to see and to know what we all know - that the obstacle is on the other side.

[Reffo]

However, I still believe that what Israel needs to do now on a formal level (as opposed to the practical one) is to declare its vision of the final resolution of the conflict

When you say 'vision' do you mean the broad outline of a peace plan without fleshing out the details?

If no, because you mean to provide a detailed fleshed out peace plan, then we definitely have to agree to disagree for the reasons that I stated before. If you say yes, then you may be able to convince me but I have some reservations with that too.

[Chaim]

the only options I believe are open for Israel in the long run are either to expel (or kill) the entire (or vast majority) of Palestinians, or relinquish the territories on which the Palis live.
since I don't believe the ethnic cleansing option is feasible (not to mention moral) we are left with the other option.
the other option is to give Palestinians Israeli citizenship. that, I hope we all agree, will spell the end of Israel as the Jewish national home.

I still have to stay optimistic and believe that we still have a chance for peace, look at the Jewish community in Iran for example, they
live well and peacefully with their neighbors, why cant Israel do it too eventually ?