Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 25 of 25

Thread: The spoiled leftist radical

  1. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,114

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    sharonbn

    There is no need for you to reflexively turn defensive. From what you say, although you and I may have our differences, we are in broad agreement. I was not talking about leftists like you and Pleepleus when I criticized the 'left'. I was talking about the extreme left. And yes, I am critical of the extreme 'right' too, but more so of the extreme left. Let me explain why:

    Yes, the extreme right too made and continues to make mistakes but at least they are on OUR side. They want what's best for Israel and the Jewish people. Unfortunately though, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and many of the things (not everything), brings harm to Israel.

    The extreme left on the other hand has completely gone over to the other side. They don't profess to be Jewish and they certainly don't consider themselves Zionists. The only thing that is important to them is their leftist ideology. Moreover, they have strong connections with other international leftist organisations and collectively they set out to harm the state of Israel. They espouse the one state solution and they call the present day Israel apartheid. Even though some of them too I believe are motivated by good intentions, who are idealists and are committed to creating perfect societies, they do immense harm to Israel because their solutions would never work. Believe me, if I thought that they would, I would support them. But there have been too many Rwandas, Zimbabwes, Lebanons, Yugoslavias and other places that showed us where their solutions lead to. Yet they tirelessly promote their discredited theories to the world. So how can we expect non Israelis, non Jews, who are also leftists, to be less extreme than they are? That's why they do more harm to Israel. Because they are much better organised and connected to the rest of the world than the extreme rightists.

    Like I said sharonbn, if you don't believe me, then go and read the +972 magazine. You will find their misguided idealism as well as a lot of malice there against Israel. I am not saying that all of them there are lunatics or that all of them are malicious. But too many of them are that exactly ...

    PS
    Oh, and I nearly forgot to add: The extreme leftists that I am talking about, never (yes I said never) criticize the other side. Not Hamas, not Hezbollah, not Iran, not even terrorists who deliberately butcher Israeli children. They always end up blaming Israel for everything.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  2. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    383

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    Ok, but before then it was considered taboo to divide Jerusalem, even to the point that there was a petition of which the belated Yitzhak Rabin was the first to sign. Olmert was also against it.
    goes to prove my point. once this topic was taboo, but no more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I hope you are right, but I do have my fears and skepticism.
    I have nothing to say to unfounded fears and skepticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    This is the most important part of your response to my last post. I wasn't implying that we could all agree on everything, certainly not right away for sure. However, we need to keep talking with each other, including (nay, especially) with those we are likely to disagree with and try to agree on core things that ARE important to us. If we are supposed to talk with those, amongst whom are a high percentage who don't believe our country has a right to exist, how much more so do we need to keep talking amongst ourselves.
    We probably couldn't agree on everything and we needn't strive for that unrealistic goal.
    We are 'allowed' to have different views on the optimal resolution to the conflict, and it doesn't diminish our collective strength as one people. as long as we battle each other inside the sandbox on the democratic system and remember that we are one people.
    I agree that we need to keep talking to each other, agree on our core common values (call it red lines if you like) and we can agree to disagree on the rest, hopefully less important, topics.
    and I think we already started that exact process, didn't we?
    However, I maintain my doubts as to just how representative are both of us of the Israeli public. More on that later in this post.

    I also have some doubts regarding letting non-Israeli residents into our little discussion. I mean, in real life, they don't get to say much about Israel's fate. So why is it different here? I understand that this is an online forum and everyone is 'technically' equal in the sense they can post on every thread and say what they like, etc. but I must say that I do subscribe to the Israeli policy of 'let us decide our own fate' since we're going to eat the fruits of that decision. and I don't subscribe to the nonsense of 'Israel belongs to the entire Jewish people'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    Regarding Liberman, specifically, he said he would be willing to leave his home for the sake of peace (I assume he means a TRUE peace). So, he is not as "kitzoni" as people make him out to be.
    I have three points to say to that
    1) He may have paid lip service to int'l public opinion. I mean, he said some pretty extreme stuff as well, so which is his true views?
    2) even if he meant it, he may be unable to act like a moderate when the moment of truth comes, as he will have committed himself to the hard line by his electorate.
    3) which leads me to my most important point, and one that I already mentioned before - I don't care about Liberman as an individual. His followers are hardliners and they, the masses, are what's important. Once they were Tchia, then Tzomet, then Likud and now Yisrael Beiteinu (and the Feiglin faction in the Likud). They seem to be growing in numbers since the 2nd intifadah (and I can't really blame them). and it is them I think I have no way to talk to and agree with, and I think they are missing from our discussion.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Gush-Etzion, Israel
    Posts
    1,784

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Aliyah [previous post]: Ok, but before then it was considered taboo to divide Jerusalem, even to the point that there was a petition of which the belated Yitzhak Rabin was the first to sign. Olmert was also against it.

    Sharonbn: goes to prove my point. once this topic was taboo, but no more.

    Aliyah [current post]: THAT is my worry with regards to Yafo, for example. See my next response.

    Aliyah [previous post]: I hope you are right, but I do have my fears and skepticism.

    Sharonbn: I have nothing to say to unfounded fears and skepticism.

    Aliyah [current post]: I don't see why my fears and skepticism are unfounded. Your response right above is EXACTLY why my fears and skepticism are NOT unfounded. This is not to say they will come to be, but even you admitted in a previous post that there was nothing stopping them from coming to be, just that they are not on the table (for now).

    Aliyah [previous post]: This is the most important part of your response to my last post. I wasn't implying that we could all agree on everything, certainly not right away for sure. However, we need to keep talking with each other, including (nay, especially) with those we are likely to disagree with and try to agree on core things that ARE important to us. If we are supposed to talk with those, amongst whom are a high percentage who don't believe our country has a right to exist, how much more so do we need to keep talking amongst ourselves.

    Sharonbn: We probably couldn't agree on everything and we needn't strive for that unrealistic goal.
    We are 'allowed' to have different views on the optimal resolution to the conflict, and it doesn't diminish our collective strength as one people. as long as we battle each other inside the sandbox on the democratic system and remember that we are one people.
    I agree that we need to keep talking to each other, agree on our core common values (call it red lines if you like) and we can agree to disagree on the rest, hopefully less important, topics.
    and I think we already started that exact process, didn't we?

    Aliyah [current post]: Nothing to argue about here.

    Sharonbn: However, I maintain my doubts as to just how representative are both of us of the Israeli public. More on that later in this post.

    Aliyah [current post]: Ok, I admit it would be a stretch to say that the two of us are representative of the Israeli public. However, I think if two individuals like us can discuss things civilly, it can serve as a good example. After all, I live in a "settlement", while you live in Tel-Aviv. I live an "observant" life style, while you live a more "secular" life style. You vote left of center, while I vote right of center (although, at this point I would vote for a party, left, right, or center, whose main battle is to rid this country of corruption, but that is another story). For sure, we disagree on quite a bit (although probably less now than we would have when I first joined this forum in 2005). The bottom line is, you are right, Israeli society is way too complicated to be "represented" by two posters, but I hope you and I can keep having civilized discussions about the future of Israel, nevertheless.

    Sharonbn: I also have some doubts regarding letting non-Israeli residents into our little discussion. I mean, in real life, they don't get to say much about Israel's fate. So why is it different here? I understand that this is an online forum and everyone is 'technically' equal in the sense they can post on every thread and say what they like, etc. but I must say that I do subscribe to the Israeli policy of 'let us decide our own fate' since we're going to eat the fruits of that decision. and I don't subscribe to the nonsense of 'Israel belongs to the entire Jewish people'.

    Aliyah [current post]: I don't think it is possible to stop non-Israeli residents (Jewish or not) from talking and arguing about Israel's policies. If this forum was in Hebrew, it might cut down the percentage of non-Israeli residents (probably not by 100% though). I do believe that Israel belongs to the entire Jewish people as long as the Law of Return exists (hence every Jew has the potential to be a citizen of Israel). However, when it comes to voting for/in Israel the buck stops for non-citizens (Jewish or not). You want to have the right to vote, then make aliyah.

    Aliyah [previous post]: Regarding Liberman, specifically, he said he would be willing to leave his home for the sake of peace (I assume he means a TRUE peace). So, he is not as "kitzoni" as people make him out to be.

    Sharonbn: I have three points to say to that
    1) He may have paid lip service to int'l public opinion. I mean, he said some pretty extreme stuff as well, so which is his true views?
    2) even if he meant it, he may be unable to act like a moderate when the moment of truth comes, as he will have committed himself to the hard line by his electorate.
    3) which leads me to my most important point, and one that I already mentioned before - I don't care about Liberman as an individual. His followers are hardliners and they, the masses, are what's important. Once they were Tchia, then Tzomet, then Likud and now Yisrael Beiteinu (and the Feiglin faction in the Likud). They seem to be growing in numbers since the 2nd intifadah (and I can't really blame them). and it is them I think I have no way to talk to and agree with, and I think they are missing from our discussion.

    Aliyah [current post]: I will just respond to #3. I have always voted to the right of Likud, yet wallah here I am wanting to have a discussion with you (and any other Israelis, right, left, or center) about the future of Israel.
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

  4. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    383

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    Yes, the extreme right too made and continues to make mistakes but at least they are on OUR side. They want what's best for Israel and the Jewish people. Unfortunately though, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and many of the things (not everything), brings harm to Israel.
    I do not believe so. the extreme right has proven it is only interested in advancing its own goals. They are not interested in the welfare of the Israeli public, they do not concern themselves with long term fate of Israel, all they care is they're agenda and themselves. They view everyone who is not with them as against them. They consider the Israeli left as their enemy - as much or even worse then Arabs. this went so far as to murder Israelis, effectively committing terrorist attacks. When Netanyahu was forced to wear bullet proof vest - it was to protect him from extreme right.
    so, no, I don't believe they are on our side at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    The extreme left on the other hand has completely gone over to the other side. They don't profess to be Jewish and they certainly don't consider themselves Zionists. The only thing that is important to them is their leftist ideology. Moreover, they have strong connections with other international leftist organisations and collectively they set out to harm the state of Israel.
    If you're talking about extreme leftists like Udi Adib, then I agree with you. However, Israelis that want to apply pressure on the Israeli gov't in order to make it agree on something like the Geneva Accord, - in my eyes they are right. Their methods may be harsh and they may hurt Israel in the short term, but they mean good in the long term. They certainly do not mean to destroy Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    They espouse the one state solution
    You know that the extreme right advocates binational state, don't you? all for the sake of not giving up land to Palestine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    and they call the present day Israel apartheid.
    Apartheid may be harsh, but Israel is not innocent of racism against Arabs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    PS
    Oh, and I nearly forgot to add: The extreme leftists that I am talking about, never (yes I said never) criticize the other side. Not Hamas, not Hezbollah, not Iran, not even terrorists who deliberately butcher Israeli children. They always end up blaming Israel for everything.
    and the extreme right never (yes I said never) criticize when violence occurs on innocent Arabs or leftists. see the recent case of Lt. Col. Shalom Eisner.

  5. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    383

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I don't see why my fears and skepticism are unfounded. Your response right above is EXACTLY why my fears and skepticism are NOT unfounded. This is not to say they will come to be, but even you admitted in a previous post that there was nothing stopping them from coming to be, just that they are not on the table (for now).
    I will clarify - there is nothing stopping the Arabs from demanding Yafo. Some of them do demand it today (or at least to "return" and live there)
    However, there is no fear of the Israeli mainstream public agreeing to this demand b/c the Israeli left never agreed to that demand. The process I described was how leftists ideas were considered radical in the past and then over time got accpeted by the mainstream public opinion. There is no fear that this will happen with Yafo.

    So if you have fears that the Arabs will demand Yafo, let them. Israel will never give up Yafo since it is impracticle to do so (regardless if the demand is justified or not).
    If you have fears that Israel mainstream public opinion will accept this demand, like it did with the division of Jer'm - then your fear is unfounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I live in a "settlement", while you live in Tel-Aviv.
    You do know that according to the Geneva Accord, Gush Etzion was to remain under Israli control?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    For sure, we disagree on quite a bit (although probably less now than we would have when I first joined this forum in 2005).
    There goes my point proven again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I do believe that Israel belongs to the entire Jewish people as long as the Law of Return exists (hence every Jew has the potential to be a citizen of Israel). However, when it comes to voting for/in Israel the buck stops for non-citizens (Jewish or not). You want to have the right to vote, then make aliyah.
    Israel belongs to Israelis. Specifically, to Israeli Jews.
    Like I said, Israel must maintain its position as the homeland of the Jewish people, and serve as safehaven for Jews who flee persecutions. It must also continue urging Jews to return and participate in the building of their homeland.

  6. #21
    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Artzot haBrit
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    Aliyah [previous post]: Ok, but before then it was considered taboo to divide Jerusalem, even to the point that there was a petition of which the belated Yitzhak Rabin was the first to sign. Olmert was also against it...
    Olmert may have opposed it at one time, but in 2008 he offered to divide Jerusalem and even more, to give up sole Israeli sovereignty over the "Holy Basin". The Palestinian negotiators were surprised that he agreed to give up the Temple Mount so easily.

    I am not too worried about Yafo, but fear that giving up the Temple Mount, Old City, City of David for peace might become acceptable to a future Israeli public tired of war. I would not give up a centimeter of any of them even for a real peace. On this topic I am a kitzoni and even a meshuganeh.
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

  7. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,114

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by sharonbn
    If you're talking about extreme leftists like Udi Adib, then I agree with you
    I don't even know who he is. I never heard of him but I am glad that you agree with me/us about the extreme left.

    For what it's worth, after thinking about it more, I too agree with you about the extreme right. They are just as dangerous and just as much a threat to Israel's future. All extremes are dangerous. The extreme right is a danger too because they already assassinated an Israeli prime minister (Rabin) and they threaten to do more of the same to others. That is just as dangerous as what the extreme leftists do.

    I will however say that I don't include ordinary Israelis who live in what they erroneously describe as "settlements", especially the main blocs, I don't call them extreme rightists. They may be rightists but most of them are not extremists.

    I hope we can agree on the above, sharonbn?
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  8. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    7,114

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by dayag
    but fear that giving up the Temple Mount, Old City, City of David for peace might become acceptable to a future Israeli public tired of war. I would not give up a centimeter of any of them even for a real peace. On this topic I am a kitzoni and even a meshuganeh
    I don't think that makes you a kitzoni (extremist). The Temple Mount belongs to Israel it is the holiest site for all Jews. Yes, it is holy for Muslims too because a few hundred years ago they chose to build a mosque on top of the Jewish holy site. It has always been a Muslim custom to appropriate holy sites of other religions. That's life, we don't hold it against them. And even more than that, we should respect their holy site too (in spite of what they did - that's just history ...). But to expect Jews to totally give up their holiest site, that's another matter. That is not on. That should not happen. It is not even negotiable. I am 100% with you dayag. There should be a limit to the compromises that Israel should be prepared to make.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  9. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    383

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    I don't even know who he is. I never heard of him but I am glad that you agree with me/us about the extreme left.
    You can read about him here

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    I will however say that I don't include ordinary Israelis who live in what they erroneously describe as "settlements", especially the main blocs, I don't call them extreme rightists. They may be rightists but most of them are not extremists.

    I hope we can agree on the above, sharonbn?
    well, we have a shiny example of a moderate settler in the form of Aliyah1995, so I really can't argue with you
    I believe that most settlers are level headed people who can be reasoned with.
    btw, my parents live in Gilo, a southern neighborhood of Jer'm which is considered a settlement in the eyes of the world. My parents are leftists like me ...

    I believe it is (still) possible to draw the border between Israel and Palestine in such a way that leaves most of the settlements in Israeli control. However, we also need to understand we will not hold Hebron or Beth Lehem and the bulk of Judea and Samaria and we need to stop building there and stop the settlers who go to live there - it is counterproductive.

    Perhaps we (Israel) can invest in developing areas like Gush Etzion, Givaat Zeev and Maale Edumim. All of them are settlements that are to remain in Israel according to the Geneva Accord.

  10. #25
    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Artzot haBrit
    Posts
    3,337

    Re: The spoiled leftist radical

    We kind of got off topic and it was my fault. I have created a new thread titled "Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?"

    http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...l=1#post337946
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Leftist antisemitism; why?
    By Mediocrates in forum Tackling Anti-Semitism
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-25-2010, 07:02 AM
  2. A Leftist Speaks Out
    By Aliyah1995 in forum Tackling Anti-Semitism
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-11-2010, 10:57 AM
  3. New leftist movement is born
    By sharonbn in forum Israeli Politics
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-28-2008, 04:26 AM
  4. whats an israeli leftist?
    By pelsar in forum Separation Plan
    Replies: 151
    Last Post: 09-09-2005, 08:49 AM
  5. Spoiled brats, we've had enough !!!!
    By Ophra in forum Israeli Politics
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 08-31-2004, 09:22 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •