View Poll Results: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

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Thread: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

  1. #16
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharonbn View Post
    guys,

    on a more general note: you seem to think that Israel giving up sovereignty automatically means handling over to the Arabs, but there is another option. The temple mount and possibly other holy sites (Holy Basin) can come under "special regime" (quote from Clinton plan) which is governed by some kind of int'l body. The place can even have NO sovereignty at all, with daily administration handled jointly by Israel and the Arabs and the int'l community. or any other arrangement that will not place sole sovereignty in the hands of one party.

    I will say it again: under this arrangement, Jews will have free access to places that they cannot access today, when the site is under Israeli control...
    You do realise that today at least, such a solution would not be acceptable to the Palestinian Arabs? You do realise that they demand sole sovereignity over the entirity of East Jerusalem?
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  2. #17
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    well, according to Wikipedia the legal status of east Jer'm and the old city is complicated and disputed. Most of the countries of the world, do not recognize Israel, or any other sovereignty over that region and fall back to the 1947 partition plan which proposed int'l sovereignty over the whole city.

    According to Geneva Accord, western Jer'm will become the capital of Israel, while the eastern part will become the capital of Palestine. The Jewish quarter in the old city and the western wall will be under Israeli control, while the rest of the old city, incl' the temple mount, will be under Palestinian one. in my eyes, this seems reasonable. It follows the guideline set by Clinton - "Israel will control Jewish neighborhoods, Palestine will control Arab ones"

    Personally, I have no special desire or need to see the rebuilding of the Temple. I would like for Israel to have sovereignty over the temple mount. given its religious significance, but this is not a 'red line' for me. I am much more concerned with the future of the modern state of Israel than any religious symbol.

  3. #18
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Yes, sharonbn is spot on here. I think the Old City should be divided between Israel and the Palestinians in terms of sovereignty (the Jewish Quarter and one of the Christian ones should go to Israel, the rest would be for the Palestinians) but be an autonomous part of both countries managed jointly by Israel, the Palestinians and the UN.

  4. #19
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    I, for one, am not sure I would trust the UN in such an arrangement.
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

  5. #20
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharonbn
    "Israel will control Jewish neighborhoods, Palestine will control Arab ones"
    The Temple Mount is not considered Jewish neighbourhood? I beg to differ. The wailing wall is around the corner from it and as we all know, the Temple Mount is the site of Solomon's Temple which is Judaisms holiest site.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  6. #21
    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I, for one, am not sure I would trust the UN in such an arrangement.
    I agree 100%. The UN has a long history of anti-Israel bias.
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

  7. #22
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    sharonbn

    You mentioned the Geneva accord a number of times. So just for the record, it needs to be put into perspective. It was a privately initiated deal between private individuals and therefore it is in no way binding. Here, read this:

    Parameters of the Accord were negotiated in secret for over 2 years before the 50-page document was officially launched on December 1, 2003, at a ceremony in Geneva, Switzerland. Its initiator was Swiss Political Science professor Alexis Keller. Among its creators are formal negotiators and architects of previous rounds of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations including former Israeli minister and politician Dr. Yossi Beilin, and former Palestinian Authority minister Yasser Abed Rabbo. Both noted that the Geneva accord did not obligate either of their respective governments, even though Abed Rabbo was a minister at the time of the signing
    The Geneva Accords
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  8. #23
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Talking about good will and compromise, read this ...

    As part of the Old City, controlled by Israel since 1967, both Israel and the Palestinian Authority claim sovereignty over the site, which remains a major focal point of the Arab-Israeli conflict.[6] In an attempt to keep the status quo, the Israeli government enforces a controversial ban on prayer by non-Muslim visitors
    The Waqf inssists that non Muslims cannot pray on the Temple Mount - Or Har Habayit as it is known in Hebrew

    ... and this happens while the site is still ultimately under Israeli control. Israel has been willing to accommodate Muslim sentiments even though those sentiments are intolerant towards other religions. Just imagine how things would be if the control of the Temple Mount would be fully handed over to the Arabs. Things would revert to the bad old days between 1949 and 1967 when Arabs desecrated every Jewish holy site in the old city. No more, never again!!!

    To put this situation into perspective. Imagine the reaction of the Muslim world if Muslims would be forbidden to pray in Mecca. Or the reaction of Catholics if they would be forbidden to pray at the Vatican ...

    PS
    Ok, to be fair, some very religious Jews consider Har Habayit so holy that they are reluctant to set foot on the site in case they tread on the inner sanctum and thereby desecrate it because only the high priests were allowed to enter the holy of holies. But not all feel that way. Many Jews consider the site a Jewish historical treasure as well as religiously significant (highly significant). Yet they too are barred by the Waqf from praying there and the rule is strictly enforced. Highly unfair in my opinion.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  9. #24
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I, for one, am not sure I would trust the UN in such an arrangement.
    Surprisingly I agree. The UN peace keeping forces have poor track record of objectivity. However, they are the lesser evil and I see no other alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    The Temple Mount is not considered Jewish neighbourhood? I beg to differ. The wailing wall is around the corner from it and as we all know, the Temple Mount is the site of Solomon's Temple which is Judaisms holiest site.
    The Temple Mount WAS the site of Solomon's Temple (and also Herod's one, the western wall being a relic of his temple, rather than the first one). Now there is a mosque standing there, a Muslim place of worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    You mentioned the Geneva accord a number of times. So just for the record, it needs to be put into perspective. It was a privately initiated deal between private individuals and therefore it is in no way binding.
    yes of course I know that. btw, to put it into exact perspective, this "privately initiated deal" was authored by former and acting knesset members, a former IDF general and a former IDF chief of stuff.

  10. #25
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharonbn
    The Temple Mount WAS the site of Solomon's Temple (and also Herod's one, the western wall being a relic of his temple, rather than the first one). Now there is a mosque standing there, a Muslim place of worship
    That's a bit glib. So let me be glib too. If the Arab Muslims could be supremacist and build their holy mosque on top of Judaisms holiest site and compel modern Israeli leaders to stop Jews from even praying there on the basis that it's NOW a Muslim holy site, then those Jews who care about history and who respect their own religion can reverse the process.

    Personally, I would prefer a compromise solution in which each religious group learns to respect the feelings of the other group. Based on recent history, Israel and the Jews did a better job than the Muslim Arabs. In fact they seem to have looked after the feelings of Arab Muslims even more than the feelings of fellow Jews. They have to ease back from that and the Arabs must learn to accept that. All self respecting Jews, Israelis and human beings should insist on it instead of continuing to appease the Arab supremacists.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  11. #26
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I, for one, am not sure I would trust the UN in such an arrangement.
    That's why the arrangement should be done jointly between the three sides (all of them would have men on the ground there, in the same way Israel and the PA were suppose to do joint patrols in Area B defined in the Oslo Accords).

  12. #27
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    That's a bit glib. So let me be glib too. If the Arab Muslims could be supremacist and build their holy mosque on top of Judaisms holiest site
    well, as long as we're glib, they didn't.
    You forgot that it wasn't the Arabs who destroyed the Temple, it was the Romans. They (the Romans) built a temple for Jupiter on the site and founded the city of Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of Jer'm. Later on, when Rome embraced Christianity, a church was built on the site, but that was tore down too. When finally the Arabs came to Israel, some 500 years after the temple destruction, the site was "a garbage dump" (according to Wikipedia).

  13. #28
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by wat0n View Post
    That's why the arrangement should be done jointly between the three sides (all of them would have men on the ground there, in the same way Israel and the PA were suppose to do joint patrols in Area B defined in the Oslo Accords).
    We know how that "joint patrol" turned out. And we know that if violence breaks out between worshipers who the UN will blame the escalation in violence on. Sorry, wat0n, but this reminds me of the story of the man who went to a restaurant and got really sick from food poisoning. He went back a second time to eat at the restaurant and got violently sick again. His wife said to him, the first time it was on the restaurant, but the second time it was on you.

    Same difference here.
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

  14. #29
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharonbn View Post
    well, as long as we're glib, they didn't.
    You forgot that it wasn't the Arabs who destroyed the Temple, it was the Romans. They (the Romans) built a temple for Jupiter on the site and founded the city of Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of Jer'm. Later on, when Rome embraced Christianity, a church was built on the site, but that was tore down too. When finally the Arabs came to Israel, some 500 years after the temple destruction, the site was "a garbage dump" (according to Wikipedia).
    Sharon, the Temple Mount remains the Holiest site in Judaism. That status has never changed regardless of how the site was being used. The Arabs knew the site was Holy to us when they built the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock on top of it.
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

  15. #30
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    Re: Should Israel give up the Temple Mount for a real peace?

    how do you know? did you ask them?

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