Dramatic turn of events at the Knesset at 2 in the morning

[Aliyah1995]

Don't know, the only ultra-orthodox party that has any clout is Shas. Other than that you have an Asheknazi ultra-orthodox party (don't even know what their latest name is) which is lucky to garner 5 seats. I still don't understand how they can be such a threat, especially if the threshold is raised, unless you are talking about death threats.

[Sylvia]

The Tal Law cannot be reversed. Mofaz knows it. One of the reasons being that Tsahal is not able to absorb that many soldiers. Now it is possible that Mofaz, former head of staff, means by that that he will reform the army to make it more flexible and capable to integrate more troops. But I doubt it. He cannot make those demands on Bahurei Yeshiva but not on Israeli Arabs, most of whom won't do national service either.

And, do you seriously believe he promised not to say a word about Iran? or Hamas?

What I think it will do is weaken Lieberman. And of course, the opposition is going to exploit the social protests. Tzipi Livni was already caught speaking in an illegal demonstration.

[curlyg]

Call me a cynic but I don't believe for a moment that Netanyahu had any intention of calling an election - this was all one big maneuver intended to force Kadima into the coalition, betting (again) that Mofaz would put his own ego ahead of the party and ahead of the country. As far as bets go, that's a pretty safe one, and Netanyahu got exactly what he wanted. Mofaz gets to be (yet another) deputy PM, and Kadima gets to stave off its doom - all for the paltry price of selling out its voters and joining in this government's corruption bonanza. What's not to like?

[sharonbn]

I know it sounds strange. Israeli politics is strange. very strange.
suffice to say that the head of the knesset committee on budgeting (and responsible for its agenda) is a member of this esoteric Asheknazi ultra-orthodox party...

[sharonbn]

The Tal Law cannot be reversed. Mofaz knows it. One of the reasons being that Tsahal is not able to absorb that many soldiers.

they can do national service (like helping in hospitals etc)

And, do you seriously believe he promised not to say a word about Iran? or Hamas?

so? do you seriously believe he has anything of value to contribute in these issues? on other issues? on something?
does he have any track record of meaningful contribution to anything?

What I think it will do is weaken Lieberman. And of course, the opposition is going to exploit the social protests. Tzipi Livni was already caught speaking in an illegal demonstration.

Livni is yet another Mofaz clone - say a lot, do very little...
if anyone deserves to lead the social-economic protest movement, its Shelly Yechimovitch.

[sharonbn]

Call me a cynic but I don't believe for a moment that Netanyahu had any intention of calling an election - this was all one big maneuver intended to force Kadima into the coalition, betting (again) that Mofaz would put his own ego ahead of the party and ahead of the country. As far as bets go, that's a pretty safe one, and Netanyahu got exactly what he wanted. Mofaz gets to be (yet another) deputy PM, and Kadima gets to stave off its doom - all for the paltry price of selling out its voters and joining in this government's corruption bonanza. What's not to like?

if you ask me, i don't know why kadima dont just get absorbed in the likud. in all matters that matter, they are the same. that goes for Barak's party as well.

[curlyg]

they can do national service (like helping in hospitals etc)

This is completely inequitable. The question is not whether the IDF can absorb Haredim - this is a poisonous way of thinking. The IDF can absorb x number of personnel within their budget. If they can't absorb all draft-age individuals, then they need to formulate non-discriminatory (i.e. qualitative merit based) criteria about who they will take and who will be exempt. To use a shortage of resources to justify the blanket exemption of an entire religious group is completely discriminatory and unfair.

We need to ask ourselves what is it that should make a person eligible to do national service instead of military service -- age? pacifism? health conditions? moral/conscientious considerations? etc. and then those criteria should be applied fairly to all prospective draftees, seculars and Haredim alike. Anything short of this is unacceptable.

Livni is yet another Mofaz clone - say a lot, do very little...
if anyone deserves to lead the social-economic protest movement, its Shelly Yechimovitch.

I'm hearing a lot about this protest movement -- but not seeing it in the polls.

I don't care much for Shelly Yachimovitch. I guess as far as the current choices go, she'd probably be my pick. I'm somewhat hopeful about Lapid's party, although I don't like him much as an individual and think he's not going to be a good leader.

if you ask me, i don't know why kadima dont just get absorbed in the likud. in all matters that matter, they are the same. that goes for Barak's party as well.

Agreed. I honestly expect that in the next election Barak will run on the same list as the Likud.

[Aliyah1995]

if you ask me, i don't know why kadima dont just get absorbed in the likud. in all matters that matter, they are the same. that goes for Barak's party as well.

Because everyone wants their own show to run.

[Aliyah1995]

Curlyg-

This is completely inequitable. The question is not whether the IDF can absorb Haredim - this is a poisonous way of thinking. The IDF can absorb x number of personnel within their budget. If they can't absorb all draft-age individuals, then they need to formulate non-discriminatory (i.e. qualitative merit based) criteria about who they will take and who will be exempt. To use a shortage of resources to justify the blanket exemption of an entire religious group is completely discriminatory and unfair. We need to ask ourselves what is it that should make a person eligible to do national service instead of military service -- age? pacifism? health conditions? moral/conscientious considerations? etc. and then those criteria should be applied fairly to all prospective draftees, seculars and Haredim alike. Anything short of this is unacceptable.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. First of all, let's say for a minute we say "scr*w the Haredim". Fine, but guess what. There are no shortage of people raising noise about how the religious (i.e. the dati leumi) are "taking over the IDF" as 40% of officers positions are now filled by dati leumi. Remember the noise when the three soldiers walked out of a ceremony a woman was singing in? Do you REALLY think the secular are ready to be infiltrated by a bunch of Haredim in the IDF? I have my doubts. Second of all, if one has a 64 profile, I don't see why one would contribute less to the country working in a hospital or working with troubled kids. Sure, one can ask if an 18 year old Haredi boy has a 97 profile why shouldn't he serve in the IDF? This is not an exact science. However, I think we need to start with integrating as many (realistically, both from the perspective of the IDF, the non-observant soldiers, and the Haredim) Haredim men in the IDF as possible, but not write off national service as a "consolation prize". I agree that the current situation is untenable, but whoever thinks we are going to go from the Haredim not serving at all (save few exceptions like the Nahal Haredi unit) to universal draft into the IDF is really kidding themselves.

I'm hearing a lot about this protest movement -- but not seeing it in the polls.

Last summer they proved to be a force to be reckoned with.

I don't care much for Shelly Yachimovitch. I guess as far as the current choices go, she'd probably be my pick. I'm somewhat hopeful about Lapid's party, although I don't like him much as an individual and think he's not going to be a good leader.

If Lapid's party turned out to be a party fighting against corruption and for the working class I would vote for it. If it turns out to be a resurrection of Shinui, where the religious are scapegoated for all the country's problems, then no way!

Agreed. I honestly expect that in the next election Barak will run on the same list as the Likud.

Barak will go wherever he can keep his job.

[curlyg]

I don't know if I totally agree with this. First of all, let's say for a minute we say "scr*w the Haredim".

Why 'screw the Haredim'? It is just a matter of equity - they're not to be treated any worse than anyone else, but nor should they be privileged merely because they are Haredim.

Fine, but guess what. There are no shortage of people raising noise about how the religious (i.e. the dati leumi) are "taking over the IDF" as 40% of officers positions are now filled by dati leumi. Remember the noise when the three soldiers walked out of a ceremony a woman was singing in? Do you REALLY think the secular are ready to be infiltrated by a bunch of Haredim in the IDF? I have my doubts.

As do I. But this is the new face of Israeli society - people will have to get used to that and learn to live with it. Is the army actually 'the great leveller', or is that just propaganda we tell people to justify their conscription? Forging a common identity and united society means, at the very least, people of all segments of society must interact, preferably from an early age. The army can do that (assuming of course Haredim aren't segregated away in their own units).

Second of all, if one has a 64 profile, I don't see why one would contribute less to the country working in a hospital or working with troubled kids. Sure, one can ask if an 18 year old Haredi boy has a 97 profile why shouldn't he serve in the IDF? This is not an exact science. However, I think we need to start with integrating as many (realistically, both from the perspective of the IDF, the non-observant soldiers, and the Haredim) Haredim men in the IDF as possible, but not write off national service as a "consolation prize". I agree that the current situation is untenable, but whoever thinks we are going to go from the Haredim not serving at all (save few exceptions like the Nahal Haredi unit) to universal draft into the IDF is really kidding themselves.

It's not my intention to write off national service as a consolation prize. What I have said is that Haredim shouldn't be treated preferentially. National service and military service should be considered equal - but the criteria for deciding who goes where should be objective and reasonable, not unfairly advantaging one segment of the population over another without any good reason for doing so.

[sharonbn]

curlyg, in theory you're right. military service or any alternative should be based on equal and unbiased criteria.
and
We may get there after a while. meaning, after more and more haredim will serve and mingle with secular society, their resistence to integration may diminish.
or not.
However, currently, I think that applying an equal mandatory military service on all 18 y.o. haredim is counter-productive. They are brainwashed against IDF and will happily martyrdom themselves into jail. a gradual long term approach is maybe less justified, but will achieve more in practical terms.

Regarding the protest movement - a half million strong protest out of a 7.5 million citizens - is that loud enough?

[sharonbn]

If Lapid's party turned out to be a party fighting against corruption and for the working class I would vote for it. If it turns out to be a resurrection of Shinui, where the religious are scapegoated for all the country's problems, then no way!

been there...

except for good looks and presentability, Lapid has got nothing tangible to offer.
certianly no track record in doing anything for welfare/worker rights/fighting corruption.
no experience in politics (some will say that's an advantage, but its not. he'll be eaten alive in the Israeli politics cesspool)
in fact, on the very night he announced his entering into politics, he arranged a meeting of close friends and consultants in his house.
one of them was former PM Ehud Olmert, now on trial for several accounts of fraud, bribery and other niceties...

[curlyg]

curlyg, in theory you're right. military service or any alternative should be based on equal and unbiased criteria.
and
We may get there after a while. meaning, after more and more haredim will serve and mingle with secular society, their resistence to integration may diminish.
or not.

No, I don't think so. When speaking of minorities like Haredim and Arabs, 'national service' all too often means 'doing things in your own community.' Well, that may well be virtuous - but it does nothing for building social cohesion and intercommunal tolerance.

However, currently, I think that applying an equal mandatory military service on all 18 y.o. haredim is counter-productive. They are brainwashed against IDF and will happily martyrdom themselves into jail. a gradual long term approach is maybe less justified, but will achieve more in practical terms.

By that same logic perhaps we should exempt the children of all anti-occupation activists, or children whose parents are members of left wing and human rights organisations, many of which I am sure are happy to make a scene when it comes to serving in the West Bank. Is this all it takes? Kids throw a tantrum so we shift the burden disproportionately onto others?

I'm not saying the government should go out and draft all these people tomorrow. It may well be a gradual process - but the plan must be, from the outset, to reach a situation of equality. There should be a timetable, and a series of clear milestones set out from the start so that we can SEE progress being made towards a goal of equality within x years, rather than endless stalling and bluffs like the Tal Law.

Regarding the protest movement - a half million strong protest out of a 7.5 million citizens - is that loud enough?

When it comes time to vote, then I'll tell you whether or not that is loud enough...

[Aliyah1995]

Curlyg-

Why 'screw the Haredim'? It is just a matter of equity - they're not to be treated any worse than anyone else, but nor should they be privileged merely because they are Haredim.

You know VERY well that the Haredim cannot be forced to serve side by side with women in co-ed units. You know VERY well that they will not be ready to give up their "level" of kashrut observance. You know VERY well they will not be ready to give up studying at least a certain amount of time each day. Ignoring Haredi sensitivities and just saying you will serve in co-ed units, eat whatever is served (even if it is treif) and forget about studying for the next three years is in a way saying "scr*w the Haredim". I want to see Haredim serve as much as you do, but their sensitivities will need to be taken into consideration and if this means special units (like Nahal Haredi) then so be it.

As do I. But this is the new face of Israeli society - people will have to get used to that and learn to live with it. Is the army actually 'the great leveller', or is that just propaganda we tell people to justify their conscription? Forging a common identity and united society means, at the very least, people of all segments of society must interact, preferably from an early age. The army can do that (assuming of course Haredim aren't segregated away in their own units).

First and foremost, the army's raison de'etre is to defend the country. Whether people finish their army service having made friends and connections is secondary.

It's not my intention to write off national service as a consolation prize. What I have said is that Haredim shouldn't be treated preferentially. National service and military service should be considered equal - but the criteria for deciding who goes where should be objective and reasonable, not unfairly advantaging one segment of the population over another without any good reason for doing so.

In your opinion, Curlyg, if a Haredi with a non-combatant profile can either serve in the IDF stuffing boxes in a machsan or doing national service working for Magen David Adom, what would you choose? I know what I would.