Ok, so we have peace with the Arabs, now what?

[Aliyah1995]

I am starting this thread due to my concern with where Israel is heading. I am NOT talking about the Israel/Arab conflict. G-d only knows there is enough talk about that. It seems like whenever there is a discussion about Israel (in this forum included) it revolves around the conflict and all the other pressing issues (and there are a lot of them) take a back seat. Sure, once in a while we will see a doomsday like scenario article about how the majority of Israel will be either Haredi or Arab in the not so distant future. Once in a while we will see an article about corruption in the government. However, the overwhelming majority of the time, we are arguing over how to make peace with our neighbors, specifically the Palestinians. Don't get me wrong, I am not belittling the importance of this. NOBODY wants to be at perpetual war, so this is not a topic to be taken lightly. That being said, even if we were to magically have peace with the Arabs tomorrow (Palestinian or otherwise), where do we go from there?

That is why I am starting this thread. I think it is important to brainstorm over pressing issues that are no less important to resolve than "the conflict". Some issues that come to my mind are:

1) Is the current system of government really working? Is it truly representing the people as a democracy should? Is there a true system of checks and balances? Should there be regional representation? And so on....

2) Are government and religion too intertwined? If so, how much should religion be involved in the government? How about issues like civil marriage, public transportation on Shabbat, how much religious studies should be obligatory in public schools, etc.

3) How about the issue of Haredim and Arabs not serving in the IDF or performing national service?

4)How do we deal with corruption that has taken root in the government and other institutions we trust in?

5) How about the economy? How do we keep the middle class from constantly shrinking and how can we keep families off the streets (including working families)?

I'm sure there are more topics that aren't coming to my head at the moment, so feel free to add one if you can think of one I haven't mentioned, but choose a topic and start brainstorming. Because we can have 100% peace with our neighbors, but the above issues are no less of a threat to our well being than our enemies from the outside. Let the discussions begin....

[wat0n]

1) Is the current system of government really working?

No, not really. Israel's electoral system fosters instability and a disproportionate focus on short-term issues in detriment of long-term concerns.

Is it truly representing the people as a democracy should?

Yes, it is way too representative in fact.

Is there a true system of checks and balances?

Yes, but it doesn't work optimally.

Should there be regional representation?

I'm not sure about this.

2) Are government and religion too intertwined? If so, how much should religion be involved in the government? How about issues like civil marriage, public transportation on Shabbat, how much religious studies should be obligatory in public schools, etc.

I don't know if they are too intertwined as a whole, but I do believe there should be civil marriage and public transportation in Shabbat. On the other hand I also believe religious marriage should be recognized by the State and that religion should be taught in public schools (partly because it is, well, a major feature of the Jewish people's and the whole region's past and present).

3) How about the issue of Haredim and Arabs not serving in the IDF or performing national service?

If there was peace, military service should be optional but a national civilian service could be obligatory for everyone. I'm more worried about the fact that many Haredim don't search for a job, and while they would like to be spoon-fed by the State the truth is that still many Haredim preferred praying over working even after they lost a substantial amount in welfare in the reforms carried out in ~2003.

4)How do we deal with corruption that has taken root in the government and other institutions we trust in?

I don't know. I like to believe in increasing transparency and all that, but there are limits to this.

5) How about the economy? How do we keep the middle class from constantly shrinking and how can we keep families off the streets (including working families)?

I don't know. I'm worried about the inequalities on per capita public spending between the Jewish and Arab sectors as well, but a stronger drive to closing social gaps in Israel for everyone would solve them for the most part (because Arabs tend to be poorer). I don't know, however, how should Israel's tax system should be reformed so this won't negatively affect long-term growth, though it is also true that if the conflict ended defense spending could be reduced by 1 or 2% of GDP and the money could be directly channeled to addressing social gaps.

I also think an effort just as big should be made to reform education in the Haredi and Arab sectors, so pupils will have the necessary tools for being able to fend for themselves in a globalized economy. I'm more worried about the consequences for long-term economic growth of not doing this than those on inequality (which are there but the effect would be relatively modest compared to a deeper redistribution of income through social spending and taxation), though.

Still, honestly, when I went to Israel a couple of years ago I didn't find it as unequal as most Israelis believe, but I live in one of the most socially unequal regions in the world so my standards are fairly low in this regard.

[sharonbn]

1) Is the current system of government really working? Is it truly representing the people as a democracy should? Is there a true system of checks and balances? Should there be regional representation? And so on....

its an interesting question. I though the obvious answer was no, the gov't system is not working, and the reasons are obvious too (corruption, small parties extortion, etc) However, I heard an interesting interview on the radio where they mentioned an academic research that compared the political systems of major democracies in the world. each had its own set of problems and not one seemed "perfect". the conclusion was that we should stay with our own system as changing it replaces out problems with new ones.
Perhaps some small changes can be done to somewhat improve the situation, like raising the threshold vote count.

2) Are government and religion too intertwined? If so, how much should religion be involved in the government? How about issues like civil marriage, public transportation on Shabbat, how much religious studies should be obligatory in public schools, etc.

well, as a secular (and liberal) I tend to vote for total separation between state and religion. However, I do believe that the state of Israel should promote Jewish culture as part of its role as the homeland of the Jewish people. that would include putting emphasis on Jewish studies at school as well as "enhancement" projects such as visits to synagogues, trips to holy places, interviews with prominent figures, etc

3) How about the issue of Haredim and Arabs not serving in the IDF or performing national service?

I am all for making the necessary steps towards better integration of these communities in civil duties.

5) How about the economy? How do we keep the middle class from constantly shrinking and how can we keep families off the streets (including working families)?

well, this seems the be an issue that is on the table in all of the western world. the recommendations are already listed by the various official committees that setup in the last year. it only remains to se if and how these recommendations are implemented.

I would add the topic of racism and xenophobia in Israeli society. there were several expressions of these ugly traits towards minorities, especially the citizens of Ethiopian orign. Also I heard that the phenomena is widespread in the Haredi community.

[NewsGuy]

Very interesting thread, Aliyah.

I've always thought that as soon as the Arab-Israeli conflict is no longer an existential threat to Israel, the in-fighting will start full-force.

It really is true, IMO, that the external conflict has for a long time protected Israelis from all-out in-fighting. I have no doubt that the religious vs. non-religious conflicts would explode and the political conflicts would escalate even more than now.

Add to that the problem that Black immigrants (legal as well as illegal) have never succeeded in melding into Israeli society, which would produce even further conflicts.

Plus, of course, the Arab population in Israel, which is now 20% and growing, and the situation would be explosive.

That's why even if it sounds odd, I think that it's a good thing that there is an external enemy. Otherwise Israeli societal divisions could become unbearable.

[Aliyah1995]

Sharonbn-

its an interesting question. I though the obvious answer was no, the gov't system is not working, and the reasons are obvious too (corruption, small parties extortion, etc) However, I heard an interesting interview on the radio where they mentioned an academic research that compared the political systems of major democracies in the world. each had its own set of problems and not one seemed "perfect". the conclusion was that we should stay with our own system as changing it replaces out problems with new ones.

Do you have any links to this academic research or interview? I would be interested in reading about it.

Perhaps some small changes can be done to somewhat improve the situation, like raising the threshold vote count.

The threshold should definitely be raised. On the other hand, I don't think we should go to the other extreme, like America where it has always been Democratic or Republican, with some splinter parties that have NO chance of getting elected. There is something healthy about having more than two major parties (plus a few parties that have no chance of winning). However, the wheeling and dealing that goes on, which prevents the Prime Minister and ruling party from putting their platforms into action has to stop.

I would add the topic of racism and xenophobia in Israeli society. there were several expressions of these ugly traits towards minorities, especially the citizens of Ethiopian orign. Also I heard that the phenomena is widespread in the Haredi community.

No argument from me there. I am also ashamed by what happened in South Tel-Aviv towards the migrants from Sudan and the other African countries. Whether or not we are eventually going to send them back, we need to treat them like humans. However, another thread was started just on this topic.

[Aliyah1995]

Great to see you back, NewsGuy!!!!

That's why even if it sounds odd, I think that it's a good thing that there is an external enemy. Otherwise Israeli societal divisions could become unbearable.

On the other hand, maybe this would force us to confront these issues/divisions once and for all....

[NewsGuy]

Great to see you back, NewsGuy!!!!

On the other hand, maybe this would force us to confront these issues/divisions once and for all....

Thanks! I wanted to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts. Glad to "see" you again!

[sharonbn]

Do you have any links to this academic research or interview? I would be interested in reading about it.

Like I said, it was a radio interview, I don't have any online sources.

Hello NewsGuy, nice to see you back, although your avatar took me by surprise..

[NewsGuy]

Thanks Sharon. Very good to see you too!

I have always said that now is the time for peace.